RomanArmyTalk
Germanic Shield Boss - Printable Version

+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Allies & Enemies of Rome (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=10)
+--- Thread: Germanic Shield Boss (/showthread.php?tid=11487)

Pages: 1 2

Germanic Shield Boss - M. Demetrius - 01-12-2008

Many early Germanic shield bosses had a conical shape, rather than a round dish. Some of those amounted to being (in shape, not construction) a cone attached to a cylinder attached to a flat, round flange.

Any ideas about how those were actually made? One person said they were made from separate pieces welded together, but what little I know and have experienced from forge welding, that seems very unlikely.

How would you go about it if you were going to make one?

This example borrowed from http://www.westfali.de/brukterer/frame_startseite.htm

Re: Germanic Shield Boss - Chuck Russell - 01-12-2008

i forget which book i had that showed the varius ways to make them. i think it was in the germanic osprey book. showed the sides of 1 piece and then the cone of one piece and then they were welded together

Re: Germanic Shield Boss - M. Demetrius - 01-12-2008

Like I said, that's what I've heard, but man alive! That's some tedious forge welding! I suppose that the cone was made from flat, then, and welded into a cone shape?

That's the part that has me confused...what kind of tool would produce the point without damaging the metal...couldn't be a hammer, or it would puncture, couldn't be a stake, for the same reason. Interesting.

Fact remains, though: they did it. If you could find which book, that would be helpful, Chuck. I'm determined to make one, one way or another.

Re: Germanic Shield Boss - Ioannes Vandalicus - 01-12-2008

Im thinking about them for some time too. Very cool thing to hit you opponent in face. Or to push forward your hesitating ally.
But they are not so cool in really tight formation. For example you trying to help your friend who is under pressure of enemy front rank. He would not be very thankful to you.
But definitely very cool to have shield with it.

Re: Germanic Shield Boss - Chuck Russell - 01-12-2008

no problem david. i'm out of town right now, but will look for it the first of the week.

Re: Germanic Shield Boss - jvrjenivs - 01-12-2008

If I look the the germanic shield bosses made by rudis Kuenstler werkstatt I would say they're out of one piece.

[url:3j5bu13c]http://www.rudis-kuenstlerwerkstatt.de/gallerie-helm-engl.htm[/url]

Re: Germanic Shield Boss - brennivs - tony drake - 01-13-2008

Demetrivs I have a pic of a boss that was found showing the fire weld on the cone, which was then attached to the flang. But I cannot think which book or paper it is in. I will endevore to find and post Big Grin
Regards Brennivs Big Grin

Re: Germanic Shield Boss - M. Demetrius - 01-14-2008

Thanks, Tony, I'd appreciate it. The more I learn about the Ancients' ways with metal, the more I'm amazed. Of course it's the only way they had, but it is not simple work with modern tools, let alone all the difficulty with modern supplies and materials.

I'm going to give it a try and see what happens with a single piece, although I suspect I already know. I'll end up with a funnel with an oddly shaped hole in the middle...

I'm still thinking on the shape of the tool to smack the metal from flat to a 90 degree tube. Nothing easy about that, all by itself--let alone a cone on the end. Here goes nuthin'

Re: Germanic Shield Boss - ghandi - 02-04-2008

Hi,

for the period around 0 AD the germanic warrior (in today Northern Germany) had the choices between two types of bosses:

1) pointed conical with ca. 60° or less at the roof
2) conical with a protuding concentric rod of max. 8cm length

After various publicated examinations and my own they are in fact made in many ways. It seems that they were either made out of a single cylindrical bar of iron, a single piece of iron plate or out 3 to 4 premade parts. In the first case the rim, the collar, the roof and even the rod of a type 2 is forged in many working steps. I heard of reconstructed items in german museums made by "old school" black smiths.
A type 1 is made from a single piece of iron plate, by turning it around wooden model. Alternativly the roof with the collar can be made out of a single plate and a precut rim can be welded to it. Optionally a rod can be put through the point and welded from the inside.
To me it seems that both the techniques with either a cylindrical bar a single piece of plate were the most common.
Originals have a plate thickness around 1,5 to 2mm.


rim
the round flat part through which rivets are driven to fix the boss to the shield body. Around 20 to 30mm width.

collar
vertical part between rim and roof. of 15 to 25mm height.

roof
the angled upper part 60° or less on type 1. 20° to 50° on type 2

rod
on type 2 only. Up to 80mm in length and up to 10mm in diameter, becoming slighly slender to the top. No sharp point.

rivets
12, 10, 8 or 6 slightly domed with up to 40mm diameter, overlapping the rim or themselves, shank is therefor not centrally fixed on it. Or 8, 6 or 4 of semispherical form with ca. 20 -25mm diameter. All spaced evenly.
No pairs (3x3, 4x2) and no thimble formed ones before ca. 40 AD. rivet heads can be covered with bronze, tin or even silver plate. shanks are bent around on the shield backside.

hope that helps

Re: Germanic Shield Boss - M. Demetrius - 02-04-2008

Thanks for that info guys, and for the measurements. I had already decided that it would be easier to bend a sheet of metal around, and keep the cone and cylinder as one piece than to try to mate a cone to a cylinder for welding.

A cylinder to a disc should prove less of a problem. I might make the hole in the disk around 5mm (1/4") smaller than the cylinder, weld on the outside and finish, then bend the inside up and tack in a few places. If there's a weak spot on a boss like that, it will be at the 90 degree weld. I'll cheat and use torch welding, though, since my forge welding isn't up to that task just yet. For filler, I'll use bits of the same metal so it can be polished to be as invisible as possible.

Pictures when the project begins. First step is to make a cone shaped tool, wood or steel, to form the cone end. Having seen the welded and riveted types, I think I'll probably go for the welded. Looks smoother. We'll see how hard it is to do that.

Re: Germanic Shield Boss - ghandi - 02-04-2008

Have look at these pictures to illustrate...


Boss type 1
[Image: Handwerk_3.JPG]
with 3x3 thimble rivets


Boss type 2
[Image: Handwerk_4.JPG]
with 3x2 thimble rivets and bronze edging. The rivets are not chronological matching the boss form.

multitude of semispherical rivets
[Image: Kalk_07_5.jpg]

(all made by www.foederati.de )

See our shields in action:
[url:1iajko6m]http://www.foederati.de/F7.JPG[/url]
[url:1iajko6m]http://www.foederati.de/F8.JPG[/url]
[url:1iajko6m]http://www.foederati.de/Kalk_07_6.jpg[/url]


Good luck with the project

Re: Germanic Shield Boss - ghandi - 06-21-2008

A little update:

On this polish site h[url:gu9mq3dw]ttp://www.archeonwl.republika.pl/[/url] you find among other typological tables one about "germanic" shield bosses by german archaeologists Jahn and Bohnsack [url:gu9mq3dw]http://www.pradzieje.republika.pl/umba/umba.htm[/url]. The chronology is geiven with Eggers phases for roman import into the middle european north.

These are the two basic types roughly beginning some decades B.C. to > 100 A.D.:

Boss type 1 (as mentioned in my post above) or better "Spitzkonischer Schilduckel" (pointed conical shield boss).
[Image: t5.jpg]
[Image: t4.jpg]



Boss type 2 or "Stangenschildbuckel" (roded shield boss)
[Image: t7.jpg]


Please notice that the expressions "Boss type 1 or 2" was used by me and is not an official categorism. On the full page you´ll find Eggers chronologicals like B2, C1a, B1 and C1a respectively. But the basic forms of those schown above were in use in modern north western Germany in in the early halfn of 1st ct. AD.


cheers

Re: Germanic Shield Boss - Votava - 08-03-2008

New link to the "lost polish site":
Shield bosses of przeworsk culture "eastern germanic"

This is very important to use right type of shield boss to renconstruct chosen time period.

In our group "Harjis" (gothic - [haaries]) we use rather big shields (comparing to those shown in this topic). On the photo, our "new recruits" on their first fight show, with shield bosses from the second century A.D.. Shape of shield is based on shield miniatures found in przeworsk culture grave from Nadkole (2nd century A.D.).

[Image: t7a.jpg]

Re: Germanic Shield Boss - ghandi - 08-05-2008

Thanks for updating the link, Votava.

Do you also cover Przeworsk around 0 AD ?


cheers

Robert

Re: Germanic Shield Boss - Votava - 08-05-2008

Quote:Do you also cover Przeworsk around 0 AD ?
We would like to. There are many good reasons to reenact this period. Of course we would have to collect new shields, belts, spears and javelins Smile .

Sequentions of desappearing and reappearing of spikes and rodes are quite interesting. For instance, shield boss from the late pre-roman period:
[Image: t7.jpg]
Roded bosses desappeared in the first century A.C. and reappeared in the second century (Przeworsk culture).