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+--- Thread: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. (/showthread.php?tid=16575)
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RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Renatus - 05-28-2021
(05-26-2021, 10:13 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: I'd say their standard 30km/18 mpd scale is more likely - 10 days Deva to Londinium. Mona strait would add another 3 days to that - all very much in line with the estimates we've been using so far. Up the pace to 20 miles a day and they could do it in 11.5 days.
I take it that this is the route down Watling Street. I calculate it slightly differently. I make the distance from the Menai Strait to London as being c. 270 miles which, at 20 miles per day, works out at 13.5 days. However, I don't favour that route. Tacitus tells us that Suetonius travelled through the midst of the enemy. Much of the route down Watling Street (in its latter stages, anyway) would have been through the territory of the Catuvellauni, whose tribal capital Verulamium had recently been made a municipium. The tribe may, therefore, be regarded as having been principally pro-Roman.
As I have said before, I reckon that Suetonius' plan, having heard of the threat to Colchester, was to take the 14th Legion, rendezvous with Cerialis and the 9th and together go to the relief of the colony. This would have taken him along the Via Devana, with a likely rendezvous point at Godmanchester. Cerialis jumped the gun, possibly because he realised that Suetonius could not get to him in time, but even so was too late. My theory is that, when he heard of the fall of Colchester and the defeat of Cerialis, Suetonius proceeded to Godmanchester (if he was not already there) and then down Ermine Street to London. This would take him through the fringes of the territories of the Iceni and the Trinovantes and thus, with a little rhetorical exaggeration, through the midst of the enemy. By this route, the distance from the Menai Strait to London is c. 298 miles which, at 20 miles per day, works out at 14.9, say 15, days.
As to how long it would have taken for Suetonius to get news of the threat to Colchester, I calculate that, with sufficient remounts and relief riders, a message could have been got to him within 24 hours.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 05-28-2021
(05-28-2021, 11:59 AM)Renatus Wrote: I make the distance from the Menai Strait to London as being c. 270 miles which, at 20 miles per day, works out at 13.5 days.
I was just comparing John's estimate of the Anglesey to London distance, by what I would take to be the quickest route. Now I come to measure it accurately, I make it a little over 235 miles using the Google Maps measuring tool, following the route of Watling Street and what seems to be the Roman road along the north Wales coast. That would be about 13 days at 18 miles per day, or 11-12 at 20 miles a day. There would probably have been pauses en route, even if Paulinus did not detour back to Wroxter on the way:
(05-28-2021, 11:59 AM)Renatus Wrote: Suetonius' plan... was to take the 14th Legion, rendezvous with Cerialis and the 9th and together go to the relief of the colony... when he heard of the fall of Colchester and the defeat of Cerialis, Suetonius proceeded to Godmanchester (if he was not already there) and then down Ermine Street to London... By this route, the distance from the Menai Strait to London is c. 298 miles
I think that is absolutely right, and I've been going along with that scenario for a while now. The distance doesn't appear to be that great though - I make it 252 miles via Leicester and Godmanchester:
(05-28-2021, 11:59 AM)Renatus Wrote: As to how long it would have taken for Suetonius to get news of the threat to Colchester, I calculate that, with sufficient remounts and relief riders, a message could have been got to him within 24 hours.
Yes, probably. And the 'threat' could have been registered some time before the actual revolt broke out - Decianus had time to send a small detachment of troops to Colchester.
But anyway, all of these estimates bring the timescale of Paulinus hearing about the revolt, or threat of it, and getting his men down to London to within a fortnight at most.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - MonsGraupius - 06-01-2021
I watched a program on Boudica at the weekend and it was the biggest load of tripe. So, I was explaining why I thought it was tripe to a visitor and that meant explaining where it ought to be. And, I started having another look at some maps, and much to my surprise I found even more evidence.
But somehow I'd managed to lose this thread ... hence this pointless post ... and I can't see the option to subscribe.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 06-06-2021
MMMM.... Tripe..... delicious and nutritious...
I assume it was this one;
https://www.my5.tv/britain-s-lost-battlefields-with-rob-bell/season-1/britain-s-lost-battlefields-with-rob-bell-83aaa60f-bd0c-4953-9e85-ca26aa47fb10
UK only, unless you go through a VPN in which case you should be able to get to it globally.
Obviously the glamorous and overpaid (including repeat fees) contributors are milking the story for personal celebrity
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - MonsGraupius - 06-06-2021
(06-06-2021, 11:42 AM)John1 Wrote: MMMM.... Tripe..... delicious and nutritious...Thanks for the reply (I'm now seeing it).
I assume it was this one;
https://www.my5.tv/britain-s-lost-battlefields-with-rob-bell/season-1/britain-s-lost-battlefields-with-rob-bell-83aaa60f-bd0c-4953-9e85-ca26aa47fb10
UK only, unless you go through a VPN in which case you should be able to get to it globally.
Obviously the glamorous and overpaid (including repeat fees) contributors are milking the story for personal celebrity
Yes, that was the program. Nothing new and Frequent mention of "celts" (despite Caesar clearly and unequivocally placing the Celtae in Gaul).
However, like Sutetonius, I want to fight from a position of strength rather than fly into a battle I cannot be certain to win.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 06-27-2021
The British Museum are hosting a webinar regarding Boudica 1st July 2021 6pm. I don't see anyone from the thread being billed as a speaker so don't really see the point of it personally, but here it is:
https://www.britishmuseum.org/events/boudica-woman-behind-myth
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RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - MonsGraupius - 06-27-2021
(06-27-2021, 02:32 PM)John1 Wrote: The British Museum are hosting a webinar regarding Boudica 1st July 2021 6pm. I don't see anyone from the thread being billed as a speaker so don't really see the point of it personally, but here it is:I used to be on Britarch - and they would have occasional discussions, but the level of discussion here was far more detailed and thought out than I ever saw amongst archaeologists.
https://www.britishmuseum.org/events/boudica-woman-behind-myth
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The only real question, is whether they're gone to be complete "galloping up Watling street is proven beyond all doubt" numpties, or whether they might allow a small possibility that that isn't true.
But let me put it this way, if by some bizarre magic, I finally got confirmation for my own preferred location, I would announce it here first, because of all the help everyone has given and the really interesting discussion we had. Indeed ... maybe I wouldn't tell anyone ... because the fun is the looking.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 06-27-2021
(06-27-2021, 08:04 PM)John1 Wrote: the 60-61 Ad tag as if Kevin K Carroll never bothered to publish a paper....
It is annoying the way they keep doing that - implying, for one thing, that the rebellion lasted for two years, rather than a month or so with a lengthy aftermath.
Meanwhile, I went to the British Museum exhibition last week, and was dreading the inevitable mentions of Mancetter and Paulinus's dash to London... Luckily the matter of the battle site was passed over in silence (along with a lot else, as it happens!)
The exhibition itself is so keen look 'behind the myth' that it neglects to mention over half of what we know - or think we know - about Nero; all that remains is the vague impression that he was probably a decent emperor unfairly maligned by 'elite historians'...
![[Image: shocked.png]](https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/images/icons/shocked.png){kind=icon}
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - MonsGraupius - 06-27-2021
(06-27-2021, 08:20 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:I've had many an argument with "elite historians" who will state unequivocally that Tacitus was a liar and nothing he says can be trusted ... after having cited most of their argument from Tacitus. When I ask them to show these "proven lies" by Tacitus, they get aggressive and say "it's well known" without ever being able to prove it.(06-27-2021, 08:04 PM)John1 Wrote: the 60-61 Ad tag as if Kevin K Carroll never bothered to publish a paper....
It is annoying the way they keep doing that - implying, for one thing, that the rebellion lasted for two years, rather than a month or so with a lengthy aftermath.
Meanwhile, I went to the British Museum exhibition last week, and was dreading the inevitable mentions of Mancetter and Paulinus's dash to London... Luckily the matter of the battle site was passed over in silence (along with a lot else, as it happens!)
The exhibition itself is so keen look 'behind the myth' that it neglects to mention over half of what we know - or think we know - about Nero; all that remains is the vague impression that he was probably a decent emperor unfairly maligned by 'elite historians'...
What we actually have is "elite historians" who just cherry pick the texts ... to claim the bits that they like are "undeniable" and the bits they don't are "obvious lies".
The classic place this is used is when "elite historians" pick their favourite Scottish Hill and claim it to be the site of "Mons Graupius". A lot of the detail about the site is in the battle speech by Calgacus (one of the Caledonian leaders). And that is why we get this oft stated "The Romans like Tacitus just made up battle speeches". That is because the speeches contain awkward phrases like "the Romans in sight of the sea" (I forget the exact wording). But the implication is clear, the sea could be seen from the battle site or Roman encampment. Which is why "elite historians" come up with this lie about Tacitus being a liar ... presumably because that is how they approach history.
I've found the same approach with the Birthplace of St.Patrick. The early biographies make it clear he was born in Strathclyde. But "elite historian", wanting to link St.Patrick to totally inappropriate places, just ignore the facts and place St.Patrick's birthplace in the middle of England where no pirates would ever have gone ... and state categorically that is where he was born ... based on a very twisted "likeness" with a Roman name.
And likewise we see the same approach being used for Boudica's last stand. At no point does it even imply the battle is on Watling Street, and there are very good strategy reasons why it wouldn't be there, and parts of the text that point to a long delay which totally puts a spanner in the idea of the gallop back up Watling St. But that too has to some become an "unchallengeable truth".
I could go on ... everything from the "Highland clearances" to the British "Celts" is largely a fabrication. Even something like Arthur ... when you start examining the early texts what to I find: a "Merlin of the Caledonian Forest". And Arthur fights one battle in the Caledonian forest and several other battles look very suspiciously Scottish. Uther (Arthur's dad) is also describe by Geoffrey of Monmouth as retiring to "Alt Clud" (Dumbarton Rock), and that too can be linked by the Roman name to a battle of Arthur and the annals of Strathclyde list names suspiciously Arthur sounding. But no, "Elite historians" have decided that not only is Arthur English ... but if he isn't English, he is a myth.
So basically, if anyone honest actually put the effort into working out what actually most likely happened in history, I suspect half of what is written by "elite historians" would be found to be utter BS.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Renatus - 06-27-2021
(06-27-2021, 08:20 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:(06-27-2021, 08:04 PM)John1 Wrote: the 60-61 Ad tag as if Kevin K Carroll never bothered to publish a paper....
I don't see this post of John's. Has it been deleted?
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Renatus - 06-28-2021
(06-28-2021, 06:55 AM)John1 Wrote: Yes he has, he didn't like the snide tone of it.....
Who is 'he' or have you slipped into Julius Caesar mode?
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 07-01-2021
John1: The British Museum are hosting a webinar regarding Boudica 1st July 2021 6pm. I don't see anyone from the thread being billed as a speaker so don't really see the point of it personally, but here it is:
https://www.britishmuseum.org/events/boudica-woman-behind-myth
599 099
Well they bottled it..... didn't really get into the battle and a map slide showed the two forces advancing along Watling Street to contact around Mancetter. So there you have it folks, for the British Museum specialists it's still 60-61AD and Mancetter..... the direct question was posted but the host declined to ask it.....
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - MonsGraupius - 07-01-2021
(07-01-2021, 06:25 PM)John1 Wrote:I thought I registered but nothing came back.By the sound of it, I didn't miss anything (and when I looked at the participants, it didn't exactly inspire me).(06-27-2021, 02:32 PM)John1 Wrote: The British Museum are hosting a webinar regarding Boudica 1st July 2021 6pm. I don't see anyone from the thread being billed as a speaker so don't really see the point of it personally, but here it is:
https://www.britishmuseum.org/events/boudica-woman-behind-myth
599 099
Well they bottled it..... didn't really get into the battle and a map slide showed the two forces advancing along Watling Street to contact around Mancetter. So there you have it folks, for the British Museum specialists it's still 60-61AD and Mancetter..... the direct question was posted but the host declined to ask it.....
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 07-01-2021
that's ok, it's here on YouTube and far better quality than watching it live.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u02qJPIgC3I
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - [email protected] - 09-13-2021
A couple of months ago and new to this, I directed people to my website Boudiccaslostbattlefound.com. The replies ranged from factual to petty. This was my first attempt at web work and yes a number of silly mistakes have been dealt with. However, I must reply to the few comments. Firstly, I used a combat estimate for my findings, the whole purpose of which is to give options/assumptions. This point has completely been missed by those who read it. This is a novel way of locating the battlefield. As for the comment the maps do not show what I mean - then yes to some degree. Though this is purely because I do not wish to pay for it. If your IT skills are better then mine then go and look at the actual proper maps. Again, the many points in the doc have been missed and if I have to resort to 'shouty' capitals to make them then so be it. One point I did make is the ground is all - the ground is everything. The 2 locations I stated by Bicester match all the historical criteria. Though I admit I should have come down on my favorite. Other people seem to be going around in endless circles on this subject. I have the location - come back to me when you have 40 years militray experience of siting weapons, tactics, fieldcraft and ISTAR (look it up) as well as 10 operational deployments and 4 wars including being on Regional Command South HQ in Afghanistan at the height of the conflict where I was again witness to how generals (we had 5 in all) think.