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RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 12-30-2022
I think that particular "conclusion" was developed without knowledge of the presence of a possible fort in the same field. As I read it they saw the spread as an action distribution. Possibly the spread is a ploughed out cache from the putative fort or even a practice range. It will be interesting to see how the speaker deals with this in his presentation/questions now he is aware of the crop marks. I have heard the total number of shot from that field could be many hundreds or thousands over the years. I guess we'll have to attend the talk to find out......
Although the nascent Roman settlement, which had been a seat of the Catuvellauni, was by then a
municipium, it too appears to have been undefended. This apparent state of vulnerability is
possibly explained by the suggestion that the inhabitants of early Verulamium had been
relatively pro-Roman for some time and saw no need for defensive engineering. Although the
township lay a few hundred metres to the east of the Windridge Farm area, and it is not
inconceivable there was a show of resistance against the insurgents, it is unlikely that sufficient
numbers of appropriately trained slingers could have been mustered to contribute to a major
scatter of bullets of this nature to the west of the settlement outskirts.
JOHN REID, REGINE MÜLLER and SABINE KLEIN - Britannia 53 (2022), 323–346
The Boudiccan case is that the site might have been that of a "show of resistance" by the residents of Verulamium so that ignores any fortification (spotted 2017 but observed/predicted as a potential by Steve Greep in his Windridge paper back in 1987). I only started looking at Windridge because Steve Kaye pointed me at it.... so if there is a Fort (spoiler.... there is) it's discovery is entirely down to the conversations and connections we've been making on here.... chalk that Fort up to RAT.... be it down to Caesar, Claudius or Nero.... I'm happy with any of these outcomes, excited to see it get some attention and dating.... (as long as i selfishly get some credit on the HER
)653,679
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - dadlamassu - 12-31-2022
Continuing my research - Now about the 4 Legions in Britannia at the time.
1. I have read that three of the legions (II, VIIII, XX) had received drafts of recruits due to 20 year discharges within a few years of or during 60-61AD. Could anyone point me to a source to confirm (roughly) when these discharges were made and when replacements arrived?
2. Is it likely that the veterans settled in Colchester area were from either or both XIV and/or XX Legions? My reading is that XX Legion was based there before moving west.
3. Given Colchester as the only contemporary Colony (established c49 AD) would it be likely that the veterans of all legions would be settled there? I have no dates for the others other than Gloucester (Glevum) 90s AD, Lincoln (Lindum) 70s AD and Eboracum (York) 70s AD.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Theoderic - 01-01-2023
John wrote:
There is a fort at Verulamium:
Whilst on this subject of forts on / near Akeman Street , the distance between Cirencester and St Albans is 80 Roman miles with forts(or military settlements) at Cirencester, Asthall, Bicester (20 roman miles apart)....but the next known one along Akeman Street is the one 40 Roman miles away at St Albans, so in theory there should be another in the area of Aston Clinton / Cow Roast both which have been rich in Roman artefacts...
Any thoughts?
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Steve Kaye - 01-02-2023
[attachment=15760]
(12-30-2022, 11:52 AM)John1 Wrote: The Boudiccan case is that the site might have been that of a "show of resistance" by the residents of Verulamium so that ignores any fortification (spotted 2017 but observed/predicted as a potential by Steve Greep in his Windridge paper back in 1987). I only started looking at Windridge because Steve Kaye pointed me at it.... so if there is a Fort (spoiler.... there is) it's discovery is entirely down to the conversations and connections we've been making on here.... chalk that Fort up to RAT.... be it down to Caesar, Claudius or Nero.... I'm happy with any of these outcomes, excited to see it get some attention and dating.... (as long as i selfishly get some credit on the HER
653,679
John,
Windridge sling shot, villa(s), a fort and now a rather good paper; a site that happily has not been ignored and may yet have some form of survey - geophysics I hope.
Took a look at the new lidar data which now provides full coverage of the site.
Image above is annotated version of the first. It shows what may be a c.10 m wide road with flanking ditches (yellow arrows) and an odd set of depressions and bounding ridges that occupy a rectangular area (c. 100 m long) - maybe? The road has a raised centre section (agger-like) and overlies the rectangular depressions, i.e. the road is younger.
Image above is Google Earth 2020 showing the ditches flanking the raised road section.
As an aside, some of the depressions scattered cross the lidar imagery have bounding, circular crop-marks in various GE imagery; they may be the sites of prehistoric huts and their enclosures.
Regards, Steve Kaye
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 01-02-2023
Thanks Steve, it was a good talk and recorded so you may get a chance on catch up if you weren't there. The society aspires to undertaking a geophysics survey (land owner dependent) in the near future.
Best line was from Kris Lockyear observing "people have been looking for a fortification in or around Verulamium for a century" Watch this space......
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 01-04-2023
(12-28-2022, 11:06 PM)Renatus Wrote: Found it. Apparently, it's due out in April. The secret is not to look for it on the website (Silly me! Fancy thinking I'd find it there!) but to search 'Hodder and Stoughton catalogue' on Google and then scroll through the non-fiction section of the 2023 Spring Catalogue.
Interesting the author goes for AD60. He'd better hope the war did happen then, as otherwise 'bringing the year to life' is just going to involve a lot of ploughing and taxpaying...
Nowadays I'm moderately convinced that the revolt did actually happen in 60, so I'm not as outraged as I might once have been...
![[Image: smile.png]](https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/images/icons/smile.png){kind=icon}
(12-31-2022, 02:46 PM)dadlamassu Wrote: I have read that three of the legions (II, VIIII, XX) had received drafts of recruits due to 20 year discharges...
By the imperial period legions were standing formations, recruited (as far as we know) regularly, and had been so for nearly a century. The supposed pattern of 20-year (or 16-year, or whatever) mass discharges is based on an idea about recruitment during the republican period, and is not relevant here.
(12-31-2022, 02:46 PM)dadlamassu Wrote: Is it likely that the veterans settled in Colchester area were from either or both XIV and/or XX Legions? ... would it be likely that the veterans of all legions would be settled there?
Colchester was originally the fortress of the twentieth, so their veterans would have made up the majority of the settlers at first. I don't think there was any rule about who settled where though, and as there were no other colonia in the province I'm sure men from other legions settled there too, or went to London or other large settlements, if they wanted to remain in Britain. Long-standing legion bases like Wroxeter and Exeter probably had a population of retired soldiers living in the vicinity, perhaps with local wives and families.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - dadlamassu - 01-05-2023
(01-04-2023, 08:02 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:(12-28-2022, 11:06 PM)Renatus Wrote: Found it. Apparently, it's due out in April. The secret is not to look for it on the website (Silly me! Fancy thinking I'd find it there!) but to search 'Hodder and Stoughton catalogue' on Google and then scroll through the non-fiction section of the 2023 Spring Catalogue.
Interesting the author goes for AD60. He'd better hope the war did happen then, as otherwise 'bringing the year to life' is just going to involve a lot of ploughing and taxpaying...
Nowadays I'm moderately convinced that the revolt did actually happen in 60, so I'm not as outraged as I might once have been...
(12-31-2022, 02:46 PM)dadlamassu Wrote: I have read that three of the legions (II, VIIII, XX) had received drafts of recruits due to 20 year discharges...
By the imperial period legions were standing formations, recruited (as far as we know) regularly, and had been so for nearly a century. The supposed pattern of 20-year (or 16-year, or whatever) mass discharges is based on an idea about recruitment during the republican period, and is not relevant here.
(12-31-2022, 02:46 PM)dadlamassu Wrote: Is it likely that the veterans settled in Colchester area were from either or both XIV and/or XX Legions? ... would it be likely that the veterans of all legions would be settled there?
Colchester was originally the fortress of the twentieth, so their veterans would have made up the majority of the settlers at first. I don't think there was any rule about who settled where though, and as there were no other colonia in the province I'm sure men from other legions settled there too, or went to London or other large settlements, if they wanted to remain in Britain. Long-standing legion bases like Wroxeter and Exeter probably had a population of retired soldiers living in the vicinity, perhaps with local wives and families.
Many thanks, rolling reinforcement makes more sense to me rather than waiting for a 20 or 16 year point. I suppose that veterans would, if not granted local land, buy a farm, set up a business, setlle near or with wife's family, move back home or into a town etc. Pretty much what veterans do now.
Coincidentally, I am also coming to the view of the rising took place in 60 AD as this project progresses. Visit to NLS tomorrow and next week for more research!
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Renatus - 01-05-2023
(01-05-2023, 02:07 PM)dadlamassu Wrote: I am also coming to the view of the rising took place in 60 AD as this project progresses.
'I am fundamentally opposed to the doctrine that anything that we find difficult to understand can be explained away by assuming that the author had made a mistake, rather than acknowledging a possible deficiency in our understanding.'
A quote from a post of mine in October 2021. I see no reason to change my opinion.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 01-06-2023
(01-05-2023, 06:14 PM)Renatus Wrote: A quote from a post of mine in October 2021. I see no reason to change my opinion.
Was that really over a year ago?
![[Image: shocked.png]](https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/images/icons/shocked.png){kind=icon}
I would have to restate what I said then, though - we do not need to assume a mistake on Tacitus's part, just a deficiency in our understanding of his methods.
If (as seems very likely, to me at least) the main events of the revolt happened towards the end of the year, after the harvest - the initial revolt and fall of Colchester, Suetonius's march to London, the fall of London and St Albans and the 'final' battle could all have happened in October-November - then the first full report of events may not have reached Rome until the spring of the following year.
All the subsequent events and reactions by the imperial government - Suetonius's ongoing punitive campaign, the despatch of first Classicianus and then Polyclitus, the transfer of troops from the Rhine and the the famine of the Iceni - would then happen during the first two thirds of that following year, with Suetonius being replaced in the late summer.
Tacitus, writing his account nearly six decades later, probably relied for his details on the imperial and senatorial records kept in Rome itself. We might easily imagine, therefore, that he would have found these records filed under the year they were received or drafted - the Consulate of Caesennius Paetus and Petronius Turpilianus (AD61), rather than the end of the previous year. To Tacitus, the difference may not have been as important as it seems to us: Rome became aware of these events in 61, so that was when they 'happened'.
Having the revolt and battle in 60 and the lengthy aftermath in 61 makes sense of the timeline, including Turpilianus's appointment after leaving his consulship midway through 61, and even the autumnal soft fruit remains from Colchester (which I am more inclined to try and incorporate than to explain away!)
This may seem an overly tricky interpretation, but the more I've considered it the more sensible it seems. Far more so, anyway, than compressing Suetonius's military campaign in Wales into the first half of 61, or the whole revolt and its aftermath into the autumn of that year, or ignoring the all-important harvest and assuming the Iceni went to war in midsummer.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Steve Kaye - 01-07-2023
The Roman Road Research Assoc. (RRRA) run zoom presentations/lectures.
The next talk in the series is by Nigel Rothwell and Dr. Ed Peveler on 'Reinterpreting Roman Roads in the Chilterns insights from lidar data', on Thursday 26th January at 7:30 PM.
Open to all - free - register at Eventbrite https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/reinterpreting-roman-roads-in-the-chilterns-insights-from-lidar-data-registration-506092415037?aff=ebdssbonlinesearch
Also ...
Hornton-le-Street History Group are holding a talk by the renowned Prof. Richard Hingley, The Conquest of Central Britain and the Nature of the Main Roads on Thursday 19th January that sounds very relevant. You can book your place through Eventbrite.
And ...
the RRA has a youtube channel for all past talks/presentations https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWIBdrxadymOow5ziMYrJkA
BTW, the archaeologists in the SWest are speculating about some 'odd' additional enclosures around some auxiliary forts and other Roman era structures - they wonder if they are a response to an uprising in the SWest due to/associated with the Boudican revolt. Chris Smart, Exeter Uni., gave a good talk on 05/01/2023 which touched on this. The RRRA youtube version should appear soon. I've been keeping quiet about this but now it's in the open.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 01-19-2023
Well this one definitely lands in favour of Church Stowe... two maps and a photo but some fence sitting text....
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Romans-War-Depth-Military-Republic/dp/1612008852
655,021
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 01-20-2023
(01-19-2023, 10:32 PM)John1 Wrote: Well this one definitely lands in favour of Church Stowe...
The author also appears to date the revolt to "59/60"
He gives a few additional options: “The exact location of the battle is unknown, with leading candidate sites including High Cross, where Paulinus had awaited the arrival of Legio II Augusta in vain, Church Stowe in Northamptonshire and Markyate in Hertfordshire…”
I don't know what the criteria for a 'leading candate site' might be. Or why Paulinus would be hanging about at High Cross.
Markyate, though? A vague reference to the Dunstable site, maybe, or his own theory?
In a more recent book the same author repeats the list of sites and writes: "“Interestingly the latter [Markyate] is between Dunstable, a Roman site not destroyed by Boudica (indicating she didn’t arrive there), and St Albans to its immediate south east, which she did destroy…” The reference to water sources in this book suggests that he has been looking at Steve Kaye's work.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Renatus - 01-20-2023
From what I read of both books, I am not impressed. He goes far beyond the sources and presents what I assume is his own speculation as fact. This may be good fiction but it is poor history.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 01-21-2023
Interesting turn.... having promoted Cuttle Mill, then Dunstable the Battlefields Trust are now putting Mancetter and Martyn Taggs Upper Arncott on point for the Battlefield location, £30 to be a part of the study day... but £10 to watch it by Zoom https://www.battlefieldstrust.com/event.asp?EventID=1299
https://boudiccaslostbattlefield.com/main-article/
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 01-24-2023
(01-21-2023, 05:20 PM)John1 Wrote: putting Mancetter and Martyn Taggs Upper Arncott on point for the Battlefield location
Are they intending that the two presenters sort of battle it out, do you think, or are the audience just supposed to decide for themselves between equal possibilities?
Meanwhile, I was thinking more about Simon Elliot's Markyate suggestion. Strangely, far from being a 'leading candidate site', it doesn't seem to have been mentioned at all, by anybody, except the author!
It's in a general area that I've looked at before, up the valley between Flamstead and Kensworth. Although nothing seems to distinguish the site in particular - it's just a fairly shallow valley, no strong defile, no woods, no plain. And the River Ver would have been more prominent before the depletion of the Thames basin, and would have run right through it (A):
The site just southeast of Dunstable suggested my both Barry Horne and me (B) seems far preferable. I can only think that the author moved down the valley to get closer to a source of water (River Ver) - although the area of modern Dunstable contains several Iron Age wells and there are springs all along the northwest slopes of the Chilterns, so this would not be necessary.