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+--- Thread: Possible Greek sword (/showthread.php?tid=19011)
Possible Greek sword - joeandmich - 06-21-2011
[attachment=1151]800px-Nebra_Schwerter.jpg[/attachment]
Does anyone know where a sword like this comes from? I think its Greek.
Re: Possible Greek sword - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-21-2011
Mycenean most likely from it's style!
Re: Possible Greek sword - Vindex - 06-21-2011
Probably setting myself up to be shot down but there doesn't look like much room for a grip to me.
Are greek swords "socketed" like that???? Is it a spear head instead?
Re: Possible Greek sword - Dan D'Silva - 06-21-2011
Definitely an early (say, mid-2nd millennium BC) "rapier." Very short grips were in use at this time. I haven't seen that hilt style on a Greek sword but if it is Aegean I suppose it's a Sandars Type A. It lacks the squared shoulders of a Type B and the later types had rivets through the tang as well as shoulders. (Although come to think of it, that rivet layout isn't quite what I've seen on Type As before either...)
Someone more knowledgeable will shortly correct me!
Re: Possible Greek sword - Giannis K. Hoplite - 06-21-2011
I'm no expert but to me they seem like central european bronze age daggers,and the grip is big enough. They do have things in common with some late mycenean swords,since it is believed that the mycenean imported them or that mercenaries from central europe came to their lands etc.
Soon or late someone will tell us exactly what they are i'm sure.
Khairete
Giannis
EDIT: Oh,ok Dan has already given more info than me!
Re: Possible Greek sword - Vindex - 06-21-2011
Ah well...live and learn
Thanks for not jumping all over me (unlike some!)
Re: Possible Greek sword - Dithrambus - 06-22-2011
The hilt looks much like early Celtic examples. I believe Giannis is correct in assuming a European origin.
Re: Possible Greek sword - joeandmich - 06-22-2011
it is an unsual sword which is why I find it so interesting. Are their any swordsmiths who you think someone could commission something like that?
Re: Possible Greek sword - Dan Diffendale - 06-22-2011
These weapons were found together with the Nebra Disk in Saxony. Although the precise circumstances are unclear, since the objects were found by illegal metal detectors, it is claimed that the Disk was found with two swords and two axes. Indeed, there is still some doubt as to whether the Disk is authentic, though general consensus has come down in favor of authenticity. The Nebra Hoard is dated typologically to the mid-2nd Millennium BCE; a radiocarbon test placed the deposition in the first half of the 16th c. (see the Landesmuseum site for more info on chronology and the hoard itself).
On a different note, Kristian Kristiansen has hypothesized a connection between the two swords and two axes deposited with the disk and Indo-European divine twins. He summarizes, "the twin swords and axes in the Nebra hoard correspond to a widely shared ritual tradition of such depositions, which is the material that correlates to the »Divine Twins« in Bronze Age ritual. It is further supported by the Nebra Disc which links the »Divine Twins« (twin axes and swords) and the sun cult together and thus confirms their intimate relation" (436).
- Kristiansen, K. 2010. "The Nebra find and early Indo-European religion." Tagungen des Landesmuseums für Vorgeschichte Halle, 5: 431-437.
Re: Possible Greek sword - joeandmich - 06-23-2011
So it was found in France/Saxony.
Thanks,
Re: Possible Greek sword - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 06-23-2011
Joe, what sword show was your profile pic taken and do you have more and better pics of the Katana and kabuto on display ?
M.VIB.M.
Re: Possible Greek sword - joeandmich - 06-23-2011
My proile picture is of my mancave display not the exhibit I mentioned earlier. My stuff are only reproductions with the katana being an iaito not a cutting sword. I'm on a trip to LA so won't be able to post any pictures from my iPhone. Maybe when I get back I'll add pictures from the exhibit.
Cheers
Re: Possible Greek sword - hoplite14gr - 06-23-2011
The grip sockets could be used for fitting elaborate pomels.
some examples in Argos Museum ans Athens Museum have elaborate pommels that seem to be "socketed" in the grip.
I went to a Neolithic Era exibiton in the Benaki Museum. There were exibits there that were proving trade links between the Danube basin and the Aegean before the Bronze Age!!!!!
So I do not find Mycenean swords unlikely items in Bronze Age Central Europe
Kind regards
Re: Possible Greek sword - Dan Diffendale - 06-24-2011
Quote:So it was found in France/Saxony.Note that Saxony is in Germany.
According to the Chronology page linked to above (hosted by the museum that displays the artifacts in question), "The form of the Nebra swords is a one-off creation that mixes elements of southeastern and northern European sword-types; this kind of combination of traditions is also found in some less luxurious weapons from Germany between 1700 and 1500 BC."
And [url="http://www.lda-lsa.de/en/nebra_sky_disc/the_nebra_hoard/comparable_finds/"]here[/url]: "Inspired by the Apa type of sword, which was first imported and then imitated, local production of swords in central and northern Europe began towards the end of the early bronze age, around 1700 BC. These weapons included a type of blade which is slightly curved and often decorated, with a strong central ridge. These are known as Sögel blades, after a site in Lower Saxony. The swords from Nebra are in essence a combination of Apa swords, following a Hungarian model, and the Sögel blades native to northern Europe. The type of hilt here, with a shell of hollow metal creating one half of the form (Halbschalengriff), is rare."
Re: Possible Greek sword - joeandmich - 06-24-2011
I stand corrected it is in Germany