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Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - Tarbicus - 11-01-2006
The problem with the helmets on Trajan's Column and of Marcus Aurelius is not a single one has been found looking just like them. It's up to you at the end of the day I suppose, but whether it would get past your authenticity officer is up to them I suppose? There's ben a lot of heated debate on whether to use evidence from those two sources.
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - SOCL - 11-01-2006
Even despite the Vermeule article in JRS? I read the article (courtesy of JSTOR) and looked at the pictures of the helmet and, though not exact, the one in ROME does bare some striking similarities.
Quote:The helmet illustrated in Watson The Roman Soldier plate 11 is allegedly from Emesa in Syria and dated to the first century AD. It was published by Cornelius Vermeule in Journal of Roman Studies 50 (1960), 8-11, with very good quality b/w illustrations. The helmet is silver (yes, silver), making it unique for Roman helmets, I think, and it’s also unique in that nothing else like it has been discovered in the archaeological record, (again, as far as I’m aware). Vermuele draws on sculptural evidence of the Arch of Constantine and Trajan’s Column for comparable pieces, and you can see one on T’s Col at the Stoa website here: [url:qt3p3wpx]http://www.stoa.org/trajan/buildtrajanpage.cgi?248[/url]
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - Tarbicus - 11-01-2006
You mean the one at the Toledo Museum? That's the very one I mention in another thread just fifteen minutes after speaking to the museum's registrar on the phone and being told it's been found to be a fake. She's sending me more information.
[url:1po2uran]http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?p=98514#98514[/url]
I was so gobsmacked to see it myself I dug around a bit more and found a reference on the web about a fake Roman helmet at the Toledo museum. I couldn't bear not to know so I picked up the phone, and before I could get the full question out she said "Fake."
Addendum: The helmet was sold to the museum in good faith by a reputable dealer. Analysis methods have improved much since 1960.
Entertainment Value vs. Historical Accuracy - Narukami - 11-01-2006
There is, to be sure, a constant struggle between the goals of entertainment and accuracy. The two are not always in opposition with each other, but that is often the case.
If I might digress for a moment...
While in graduate school I worked on a production of the kabuki play Chushingura. No expense was spared in our attempt to render a production in English that was faithful to the kabuki original. Acting and music instructors were hired from the National Theatre of Japan, while costumes and wigs were purchased from the kabuki suppliers in Japan. We rehearsed for over 6 months, learning the entire play in Japanese and then re-learning it in English.
All of us were fanatics for accuracy, not to the history of the actual event (perhaps the most famous in Japanese history) but rather to the traditions of the kabuki theatre.
However...
When it came to giving the play an English title the director decided upon "The 47 Samurai." Now anyone familiar with this event will instantly see the problem with this title. The heroes of the story were not samurai, but rather Ronin -- master-less samurai, a very important distinction.
Several of us argued rather strenuously with the director about this title. Poor choice. Wrong impression. Historically inaccurate. We should educate the American public. Etc. Etc. Etc.
The director had a simple response -- is samurai in the standard English dictionary? Yes. Is ronin? No. Case closed.
The vast majority of he public knows what a samurai is (or at least believe they do) however, very few have even heard of ronin let alone know what it means or its significance in Japanese history.
No doubt the producers of HBO's Rome faced similar decisions. I think they could have made some better choices (helmets for one) but I do understand their need and their desire to reach as wide an audience as possible.
I have watched HBO's Rome and I too enjoyed it, faults and all. By the same token, I am glad to see it picked apart here in terms of historical accuracy. What is seen in the cinema or on TV has a way of becoming the accepted historical truth of the subject, and this site at least should strive to ensure that does not happen. I have leaned much from these discussions and hope to continue to do so when Rome II airs next year.
:wink:
Narukami
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - Tarbicus - 11-01-2006
Personally, I think it's like sticking a pickelhaube on a Prussian lancer from the Napoleonic Wars. I also don't think the general public would give a monkeys if the helmets don't look like ones on the CoT or MA. I do think there are certain reference books for theatrical costumiers, that are way out of date, and are still being used too much.
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - RUBICON - 11-01-2006
Nice point Narukami. these discussions are great, one learns a lot and maybe in doing so it may one day broaden the knowledge of all involved.
As for the producers, profit is what counts. They run a business!
Yes it would be wonderful to have a historically correct documentation of ROME, but having spent many years in the industry, that reply I would always get still rings strong...
" if I spend the money on that, is it going to sell me more movies?'
Production costs versus profit.
We know that it probably wouldnt cost a cent more to produce an authentic helmet, they dont. For them to find out means paying someone to research and investigate the costs......money money money! Plus, can you imagine teh consultant screaming, this is historically incorrect to a profit making producer?
We're talking an era where actors, want all sort of ridiculous demands that need to be met..I think and know that the wants of the consultant are not even going to make the table!
Unfortunately, that's how they see it.
Is a historically correct helmet to the GENERAL public going to make a difference?
I doubt it.
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - RUBICON - 11-01-2006
Well, here is a personal experience.
A personal friend works in LA on special effects and tracked own some armourers used for Hollywood.
I sent an email off requesting prices on some works, basically a Preatorian's Crested helmet and leather cuirass, fully adorned.
When the prices came back, I nearly fell off my chair. Dont get me wrong, these were approximately $5,000 US. The helmets were $2500US, a tad more than the price I have paid for our indian replicas so can you imagine what these producers are being charged when they ask for a quote for some 1500 extras or so..that s BIG money.
Dont get me wrong, the work is FIRST CLASS and look amazing and one day I will invest in it because I think its unbeatable in looks.
Has anyone ever looked up Helmann militaria...his work looks amazing too.
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - Tarbicus - 11-01-2006
If a wrong helmet will cost $xxxxxx, so will a correct one, especially if it's a simpler shape with less parts and detail:wink:
And yes, I also work in the industry.
I also approached an armour maker for the film industry. I could have 10 Deepeeka segs for the price of one that he quoted me, and his was plastic.
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - RUBICON - 11-01-2006
I TOTALLY Agree....
The problem is..WE KNOW that....
We know the portofino is simpler in design....
The armourer wants to show off his best craftmanship for MORE future work.
The producer JUST wants a helmet that looks ROMAN!
The actor WANTS his trailer sprinkled with imported rose petals...
We connoisseurs of ROMAN HISTORY want an accurate representation.
The historical consultant is pulling out his hair because the actor playing the centurion likes his sword on the right side because it shows off his better side,,,,
The Director of photography cant work with the polished helmets because its reflecting the light......
heheheh ...where does it end........
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - Tarbicus - 11-01-2006
Quote:heheheh ...where does it end........
Alexander.
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - RUBICON - 11-01-2006
and to top all this off.....
The Studio Owners are saying...
"We dont care if he has a polished helmet, whether he has a broom on it....we dont even care if where he sticks his sword... JSUT FINISH THE MOVIE!
We are fighting a doomed battle..but a fun one!
D D D
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - RUBICON - 11-01-2006
Alexander!
As a showjumping rider and lover of the horse, let me say how SPECTACULAR the scene is when the black stallion ( which amazing looks like a mare) rears up to the elephant in the final eastern battle.
The director claims it was a REAL TAKE, and also amazingly, how when thew elephant is coming down from its REAR, the horse is still taking steps towards it.
Let me tell you, that is one brave horse....trained as it may be so, still a commendable effort.
My horses can often spook at their own shadow let alone an ELEPHANT.
then again, havent come across one whiel out riding!
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - Narukami - 11-02-2006
Quote:I TOTALLY Agree....
The producer JUST wants a helmet that looks ROMAN!
heheheh ...where does it end........
And that I think is exactly the point.
Making the historically correct helmet would probably have cost HBO just as much as the ones they did use, so I doubt money was the deciding factor, but "looking Roman" was.
If we walked the campus of any university and asked students which photo "looked Roman," Vorinus in his crested HBO helmet or a correct Montefortino helmet I would hazard to guess that most would pick the HBO helmet as they would the rectangular shield rather than an oval one.
For this we can thank Hollywood Rome (Spartacus, Ben Hur, The Sign Of The Cross, Quo Vadis, The Robe, etc.).
There is an iconic look to the Roman Army that is now worldwide, right or wrong, thanks to Hollywood.
And speaking of Hollywood Romans...
There is a new film out this winter, The Nativity, (the trailer for which I saw last week) which has the Romans working for Herod (killing children) and using stirrups.
In answer to your question Rubicon, no it will never end.
But then again, that insures that the conversations here will continue to be lively.
:wink:
Narukami
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - SOCL - 11-02-2006
The helmet at Toldeo is a fake?
hock: A pity that people would stoop so low as to try to flood the world of research and history with...well, junk.Wouldn't it be less for these producers to contact Deepeeka and buy in bulk from them? I mean, it's A) accurate and B) likely less expensive. Is it perhaps the fact that the actors are likely to complain about having to wear real segmentata or the like? :lol:
Why all the Alexander hate? I thoroughly enjoyed the movie--it was, in fact, what got to me to go back to theaters...[size=75:52z4gzxr]despite the fact I've since Da Vinci Code stopped...[/size] Ahem, in any event, I really did enjoy the movie, especially the bit Stephen (RUBICON) mentioned during the battle in India. Spectacular.
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - RUBICON - 11-02-2006
Valid point!
Until I started to reserach the ROMANS, as a child I went to many EASTER re enactments, and I will always remember shaking as teh roman centurions eneterd the church and yes wearing crested helmets!
At least ROME depicted the transverse crested helmet which if I recall has neveer been done before?
You are right, the general publics image of a roman is the crested helmet...how correct this is, is another discussion.
Stirrups! dont even get me started... an ebayer is selling authentic Roman Stirrups used during Julius caesars rein....ooops reign!
Sent him a message to authenticise them..amazingly I cant find his site anymore!