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Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - Ebusitanus - 11-04-2006
Quote:Making the historically correct helmet would probably have cost HBO just as much as the ones they did use, so I doubt money was the deciding factor, but "looking Roman" was.
You suggest that the historic consultants DID have the correct background info but the costume design team made their own version as to what they thought would look more "roman" to the public.
I disagree. I think that for whatever reason they had a halfbacked historical consultant in matters military and the rawest info to check. I think the choice as how romans should look like fell on the hands of someone who had no idea and was consulted by even less capable fellows. If it would have been about looking "roman" then we would have not seen Hamatas, right? everyone would have worn leather segmentatas.
I tell you...they must have just faxed a picture of a Trajan Column still with one of those silly helmets and ring mail.
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - RUBICON - 11-04-2006
I dont think that is Narakumi is suggesting at all. the general publics perception of a roman is a crested helmet wearing cuirass soldier, with red cape.
Movies go for what creatively will work, and importantly sets the tone of the movie itself.
ie; Gladiator, armour is all dark, fits in with the ruggedness and darkness of Germania..creates a morbid, mysterious, barbaric atmosphere.... look at the final scene. Commodus in full white armour...contrast. even his praetorian guard are in all black!
What historical reference said this colouring even existed.
The Passion; they wore dark leather segmentata, soldiers, drunken, evil, blend into the rugged, stone backgrounds that the movie is set in....what stands out...the main character in a light garment.
Julius Caesar: the soldiers here seem to have a Coolus/Weisenau cross designed helmet which was similar to the one in the Passion...
I think its dangerous to spend so much thought on why ro how the historical corrctness in movies is attained because movies, where and how they are shot; the costumes are all designed to create a mood....this is o obvious in the start of Gladiator where it is all dark, wet and cold, teh soldiers are all wearing dark clothing and armour because it create sthat sense of the dark side of the war against Germania....this is in stark contrast to when we see Maximus wandering through the brightly coloured wheat fields of his home....its cinematography....it creates a mood....it creates what the director wants us to feel......
So to say, that the consultant was half backed is unfair. as we have said throughout this thread, the director and producers have the final say no matter how incorrect it may be.
Unfortunately, many people sit and watch a movie, come out and say "Wow that was great...." the movie was able to capture the true essence and captivate the audience but more often than not, costume design, backgorunds, colour tones and music after often looked over.....or worse, they dont even register in the viewers mind as having been designed in such a way as to help create and be captivating.
we all cant be creative....but we all can critique it.....credentialled or not.
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - RUBICON - 11-04-2006
oh and another thing....this constant referral to Trajans Column...WE (as die hard ROME researchers) know it exists because if its reference points to Rome and its soldiers and what they wore and what life was like.....in this current day of re enactment, the internet, I would probably guess that Trajans Column would NOT even make the desk of a designer or movie discussion between consultants and producers.
PLUS....if they did fax Trajans Column and teh costume designer DID COPY the 'silly little helmets" then doesnt it make it historically correct?
Or are you suggesting Trajans Column is incorrect?
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - Tarbicus - 11-04-2006
Quote:Or are you suggesting Trajans Column is incorrect?I for one would not be the first to believe that the representations of soldiers on the column are stylised and created by people who had little or no access to, or no experinece of, the real thing. A far more accurate contemporary depiction of soldiers during the Dacian campaign can be seen on the Adamklissi monument, and there is a large difference to those portrayed on the column. Furthermore, the AM also tallies with actual artefacts that have been found.
The Toledo Museum silver Roman helmet is used as an example in support of the TC helmets, but that helmet is a fake. Compare the TC helmets to the ones on the AM:
[url:mkky7g9o]http://www.traiano.com/testi_html/adamklissi5.htm[/url]
[url:mkky7g9o]http://www.arsdimicandi.net/ad_1_000018.htm[/url]
[url:mkky7g9o]http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/arma/contents/iconog/provinci/adamklis/metope17.htm[/url]
[url:mkky7g9o]http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/arma/contents/iconog/provinci/adamklis/metope18.htm[/url]
[url:mkky7g9o]http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/arma/contents/iconog/provinci/adamklis/metope20.htm[/url]
Ring any bells?
[url:mkky7g9o]http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/arma/contents/recon/armour/helmet/inf/hebron/rhelm01a.htm[/url]
I know which one is correct in my mind :wink:
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - Narukami - 11-04-2006
Quote:Narukami:jaci169d Wrote:Making the historically correct helmet would probably have cost HBO just as much as the ones they did use, so I doubt money was the deciding factor, but "looking Roman" was.
You suggest that the historic consultants DID have the correct background info but the costume design team made their own version as to what they thought would look more "roman" to the public.
I disagree. I think that for whatever reason they had a half baked historical consultant in matters military and the rawest info to check. I think the choice as how Romans should look like fell on the hands of someone who had no idea and was consulted by even less capable fellows. If it would have been about looking "roman" then we would have not seen Hamatas, right? everyone would have worn leather segmentatas.
I tell you...they must have just faxed a picture of a Trajan Column still with one of those silly helmets and ring mail.
Perhaps this is what happened.
However...
If you go to the HBO Rome web site they have a couple of the costume designer's drawings on display next to the finished costume. One of the drawings depicts a helmet that looks at least closer to being historically correct and is very different from the helmet actually used in the show.
And Rubicon makes a very valid point about how the creative and artistic needs of a project (film, theatre, or even sculpture as in Trajan's Column) over rides the dictates of historical accuracy.
Of course, there are plenty of films made were the costumes are not just inaccurate, but down right embarrassing. So your point is taken Ebusitanus, but in the case of HBO' Rome, I do think some thought and effort was made, as opposed to a film like "The Nativity" were the Romans are using stirrups.
Perhaps we are "over thinking" this helmet issue, but then again someone (in this case Tarbicus) will post some excellent links that lead me to all manner of new information.
Narukami
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - Tarbicus - 11-04-2006
Quote:If you go to the HBO Rome web site they have a couple of the costume designer's drawings on display next to the finished costume. One of the drawings depicts a helmet that looks at least closer to being historically correct and is very different from the helmet actually used in the show.I can't find that. Any chance of a link?
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - RUBICON - 11-04-2006
http://www.hbo.com/rome/artifacts/props/helmets.html
http://www.hbo.com/rome/artifacts/index.html
I found this on the HBO Rome site..
Poor Jonathon Stamp, Historical Consultant of HBO Rome. I consultant versus 18 directors, producers and writer..... I feel for him!
http://www.hbo.com/rome/cast/crew/jonathan_stamp.html
Well he is part of the British School Of Rome.........well ummmm
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - RUBICON - 11-05-2006
http://www.hbo.com/rome/behind/rome_revealed/rome.html
when this opens go into CREATION...they run through the 'authentic'reproduction of teh costumes etc
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - Ebusitanus - 11-05-2006
I have the DVD and I saw the documentary inside where this one woman decided how a roman would look like. She placed the order for the armor directly with India based on drawings made by some movie hack in Italy. That simple. There was no feedback on how those helmets or shields would look in battle with the Gauls or on parade. The shields were older in storage Cinecitta props.
There was no "Director´s choice" here. This woman, who makes costumes for many movies, decided based on drawings by some local artist.
As easy as that...They could perfectly have given them all montefortinos and oval shields and no one would have rioted due to it.
Thats the whole point...the sheer carelessness displayed. For the same money they could have done it right.
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - RUBICON - 11-05-2006
Thats the whole point...the sheer carelessness displayed. For the same money they could have done it right.
Daniel
Could have done it right for whom? Youre missing the point...what s right doesnt mean what is most beneficial for the movies outcome...and that purely is PROFIT!
TV stations to buy the rights and televise the series. Its a mini series not a documanetary!!!!!!! To be honest, Im glad they represented the soldiers as they did because I for one am NOT a big fan of the montefortino look of Caesars time and I think the later look of crested helmets & segmnetata loosk a whole lot more dashing!
Once again, the general publics pereception of a roman soldier is what we have described over and over again.
It maybe not correct that the Caesars men wore teh aove bit teh roman army at one time did and I think this is the whole point....what will appeal to the overall look of the movie and how will it be received...this they achieved and did it well!
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - RUBICON - 11-05-2006
Lucius Vorenus & Titus Pullo WERE actual CENTURONS.
I have just been continuing teh reading of Caesars GALLIC WARS and in it, he decsribes " two splendid fellows in that legion, Tutus Pullo and Lucius Vorenus, both of them centruions abd both nearly qualified for the first grade. They were for ever arguing over their respective merits, and every year forund them at loggerheads in the race for promotion. At the height of this action ( that of teh attack by germanic tribes on Cicero's camp) Pullo suddenly remarked " Come on Vorenus, what are you waiting for? we'lll finish that arguement to-day." it goes on to describe how both get surrounded by the enemy and eachoher comes to the rescue, much the same in the movie.
So, maybe there is more historical correctness to the series than we acknowledge and we are getting bogged down in the costumes.
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - Tarbicus - 11-05-2006
Pullo in the series is not a centurion, and they've been mentioned before in this thread I'm sure. They've certainly been discussed numerous times on RAT.
I don't think anyone has a problem with that to be honest (we all know it's a rolicking romp), but we're just tired of seeing the same old "crap hats" being promoted by the likes of Museum Replicas, and presented as historically accurate when they are clearly not.
Their shields are s**t as well :wink: (except for a few seldom seen ones)
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - RUBICON - 11-05-2006
I agree....wait til you see the hats on a DVD called Julius Caesar,,,,CRAP would be describing them in a nice way....plus teh sizing is so ridiculous...many of teh young actors would have had their heads chopped off in no time as they spend most of the episode down over their eyes...
Ok lets agree the helmets s*ck!
Depeeka needs a little trade stand outside the studio...like the hot dog man!
"helmets, helmets....get your 'closer the the read deal Roman helmet here!"
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - FAVENTIANVS - 11-21-2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQyvuv65Ejk&NR
Re: HBO\'s "Rome" to present more realistic look at the - SOCL - 11-21-2006
I have this bad feeling that Vorenus and Pullo will end up on opposite sides in the civil war between Octavian and Antony. Why?
- 1. Vorenus pledged loyalty to Antony in Season 1 after being admitted to the evocati. He takes loyalty and pledges of allegiance very seriously, so I doubt he'll break it.
2. Pullo has more-or-less pledged loyalty to Octavian by being his trainer/boydguard for some time, as well as generally relying on the kid. Further, when the war comes, Octavian may search out Pullo for a veteran among his own forces.
3. Though ROME has veered considerably from true history, the writers may wish to preserve something of history, namely that Pullo and Vorenus were on opposite sides at the conclusion of Caesar's civil war against Pompey (as stated in ...de Bello Civili). Perhaps they'll simply take this fact and transfer it to this fiction by placing Vorenus and Pullo on opposite sides.
hock: I swear I am going to cry--and that takes a lot--if Vorenus and Pullo end up fighting each other...
