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Banded armour (manicas) and archery - daryush - 03-19-2012
Hi all
I was wondering about archery whilst wearing banded armour on the arms. It seems in depictions of the "Saka / Kushan" armour (coat of plates + banded armour on arms and legs) or the Parthian armour (coat of scales + banded arms and sometimes legs), the heavily armoured cavalry are often depicted with archery gear. There are a few depictions from Achaemenid times as well which I believe shows banded armour on the arms of archers. The banded armour seems to almost go completely around the arm.
So my question is this: to my mind, a fairly fitted "manica" would not allow for much arm flexion, but depictions of archery all appear to show a long draw length, to the mid-chest at least. So, what is happening with their "manica" to allow for such arm flexion?
One thought I had was that the entire thing was constructed rather loosely around the elbow. On me, my mid-upper-arm circumference is roughly the same as the circumference of my elbow fully flexed, so, would this, in combination with padding, allow for the banded armour to bend more at the wrist?
I suppose there could also be rather looser at the wrist (which I guess would also allow us to simply put it on like sleeves with no seam / opening, like the Pergamom reliefs seem to show) ...
What are your thoughts?
Thanks
Re: Banded armour (manicas) and archery - Dan Howard - 03-22-2012
IMO a lot of the so-called depictions of segmented plate on the arms and legs are actually a type of quilted cloth garment. Yes some segmented plate was used but not as much as suggested. Those who are depicted performing archery with this segmented armour are not wearing segmented plate at all.
Re: Banded armour (manicas) and archery - daryush - 03-22-2012
Thank Dan.
Yes, I can see how that might make some sense for "regular" soldiers, and sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between segmented plate and folds of clothing or quilting. Although, in my opinion, it would seem more fitting for the kings to be displayed on their coins in the full suit of armour. They are also displayed with bows in gorytoi.
Some of the armoured guys on the Orlat battle plaque have what I believe are armoured sleeves, and have bows as well.
The coat of plates + segmented plate limb armour has quickly become one of my favourite styles of armour, I hope to recreate it someday :-)
Re: Banded armour (manicas) and archery - Dan Howard - 03-22-2012
Until someone produces segmented articulation that can enable the arm to bend far enough to allow drawing a bow and look like the illustrations, then the most logical conclusion is that they are not wearing segmented plate on the arms when wielding a bow.
Re: Banded armour (manicas) and archery - MeinPanzer - 03-22-2012
I agree with Dan that too often sleeve folds get identified as banded armour, but there can be little doubt that cataphracts wearing iron banded armour fired bows in combat. There is a depiction of a Saka cataphract wearing segmented arm armour and firing a bow, while an almost contemporary iron panoply found at Chirik Rabat included banded armour. The key was that the bands were semi-circular and clearly sewn onto some kind of backing, and so they would not have been too restrictive.
Re: Banded armour (manicas) and archery - John Conyard - 03-22-2012
A semi-circular manica works very well and is not too restrictive. It is hard to find a clear photo of this one in use, but it is simply lined with felt.
[attachment=3453]073-Copy.JPG[/attachment]
Re: Banded armour (manicas) and archery - daryush - 03-22-2012
Thanks for the input guys.
Ruben - I guess if they are semi-circular then that poses less of a problem. Put the opening over the olecranon of the elbow and you have space for it while you bend the arm. Especially if narrow bands are used. I had always assumed that they would be more like 3/4 or full circles - I guess the ones depicted on the Pergamon reliefs may be a variant, or depicted incorrectly? (As to my knowledge they depict full circles).
I was under the impression that the Chirik Rabat set started at the neck with a large two-piece gorget and ended at the elbow, it was rather armour for the shoulders, not the entire arm ...? Although I can't read Russian, so I probably missed some important details in the description.
John - cool photo!
Re: Banded armour (manicas) and archery - MeinPanzer - 03-22-2012
The Pergamon banded armour is indeed made up of full circles, but there is good reason based on how the openings are depicted to think that those are in fact some kind of (at least somewhat) flexible material. The Chirik Rabat finds have been reconstructed by Tolstov, the original excavator, as reaching only to the elbow, but without good reason - we know that the panoply is incomplete, because the entire body has not been preserved, so it is not clear how many further bands are missing. You might also want to check out the banded armour from Ai Khanoum, though I think that only leg armour was found in that case, but I think it was semi-circular as well.
Re: Banded armour (manicas) and archery - daryush - 03-22-2012
Thanks Ruben.
Here are some pictures from "Armies of Bactria (2)" showing two items of arm armour and one of the Ai Khanom leg armour. I managed to trace down the French publication of Ai Khanom but it was quite useless, there was nothing in it that isn't in the caption from Nikonorov's book. I am currently on a waiting list for a pair of leg guards from an armourer that we reconstructed using the Ai Khanom set, and lots and lots of Kushan and Sassanian iconography :-)
"Armies of Bactria" is really the only source I've got, most of the Russian books and journals I've tried to search for are un-findable, and in any case, I can't ready Russian so it would simply be a case of looking at the pictures. :-(
Thank you
Re: Banded armour (manicas) and archery - daryush - 03-23-2012
On a similar note, does anyone have ideas as to whether it would be one single piece extending from the shoulder to the wrist, or would there be a separate piece for the shoulder and a separate piece for the arm?
The Taxila pieces don't appear to show any signs of being fitted to a shoulder, although the image isn't the best. A separate shoulder piece I reckon would also allow more movement in the arm I'd have though ...
Thanks
Re: Banded armour (manicas) and archery - richard robinson - 03-25-2012
Daryush, based on the line drawings that you have supplied,
all the ways you have envisaged are fair game for a reconstruction. I would suggest a sideaways look at Manicas in a gladiator context and peoples reporoductions. It is possible to craft manicas that fully encircle the arm and yes they do work well if u work out the elbow diameter for movement first/ as you go.
Some manicas may/ do depend from the shoulder (attached to the cuiras or similar)
though I am sure that a vambrace of hoops and a rerebrace of hoops and gutter lames that rode over each other would also be a fair interpretation ( I am thinking Polish Husssars as a parallel)
Regards
Richard
Re: Banded armour (manicas) and archery - daryush - 03-26-2012
Thanks. I like the separate vambrace and rerebrace idea, and if they are sized well, it may look like a . It allows a lot more elbow flexibility although the elbow would be largely exposed. In addition, some artwork seems to show the overlap "flipping over" between the upper and lower arms.
The Orlat battle plaques show the outside of the elbow protected, but I'm not sure whether I should draw too many parallels.
Another piece of artwork from Khalchayan. It might not be much help as it's a small photo but I couldn't find any decent photos of this guy online.
Re: Banded armour (manicas) and archery - Gaius Julius Caesar - 03-26-2012
I recall seeing images where the elbow gap is covered by ring mail, but cannot recall
if this was based on anything, and if it was Persian, Parthian, Sassinian, of Byzantine/Eastern Roman.... :???:
Re: Banded armour (manicas) and archery - daryush - 03-26-2012
Yes, I've seen that on artists' interpretations. Not sure what it's based on as I've never seen it in a primary source ...
Re: Banded armour (manicas) and archery - Gaius Julius Caesar - 03-26-2012
Yes, although, you would think it would be the logical solution.
Some images seem to leave a lot to interpretation. :-?