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+--- Thread: Spatha Scabbard (/showthread.php?tid=2423)
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Spatha Scabbard - Lucius Aurelius Metellus - 08-22-2004
Ave!<br>
I am about to attempt making a new scabbard for my late Roman spatha. Aitor has been very kind to me in helping me choose a chape that I can easily make, the Gundremmingen chape, with three small brass orbs attached to its flat bottom.<br>
I have crafted the new scabbard blank with its cavity for the blade in thin oak. My questions are, does anyone know the general shape of the scabbard itself? I have a painting of a Roman officer with a scabbard of this type, it depicts the scabbard as quite "boxy" or "squarish" looking, with square edges and straight, parallel sides. Is this correct? From the drawings that Aitor provided me of the chape itself, the scabbard appears to be more oval in cross section, rather than squarish. Did the sides actually taper down to the end of the scabbard, kind of following the curves of the blade point, or were they straight parallels? And were the corners or edges on the front and back rounded over or left square?<br>
I wanted to ask you all before I actually begin to shape my wood, as I want its final form to be correct. Any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated! <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i></i>
Re: Spatha Scabbard - aitor iriarte - 08-23-2004
Here I am again, Lucius1<br>
I posted a photo of my sword on another thread but here you have it again.<br>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tribunus/Spatha.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
The grooves appear on real Third century sheaths from Danish bogs. They are also on a Fifth? century porphyry imperial statue at Ravenna, from where I took my bone slider too.<br>
The chape is broken but I used one of the Deurne finds, taken usually to be a dagger mouth mount. The silver fitting exhibits impressions of the central and side ridges at the front but (logically) no trace of a central ridge at the back, which is furthermore undecorated.<br>
There were also plain scabbards, without any ridge or groove.<br>
<br>
Aitor<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Re: Spatha Scabbard - Lucius Aurelius Metellus - 08-24-2004
Thanks for the photo, Aitor. I recall seeing the hilt of your sword on another thread, but not the blade and scabbard. Did you make the scabbard and the slider? How is your slider attached to the scabbard? <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i></i>
Re: Spatha Scabbard - aitor iriarte - 08-25-2004
You're welcome as ever, Lucius!<br>
I enclose a sketch of how the bonen slider is set into a pair of mortises on the front lath.<br>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tribunus/sheath.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
I glued the slider's 'feet' to the mortises, then covered them with the same fine leather which I glued all around the seath.<br>
Yhe final stage is to bind tightly a cord around both ends of the slider. Many bonen sliders have holes drilled transvesely so a tighter binding could be made through them.<br>
<br>
(Darn it! I can never control the image's size!)<br>
<br>
Aitor<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Re: Spatha Scabbard - Lucius Aurelius Metellus - 08-25-2004
Hi Aitor,<br>
That's ok about the size. Those are really good drawings you have been sending, do you do them yourself? That clearly shows me how to attach the slider. Thank you! <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i></i>
Re: Spatha Scabbard - aitor iriarte - 08-25-2004
Thanks, Lucius!<br>
Yes, they are 'blueprints' for Plácido. I drew them when I had more time (or any time at all!)<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
Re: Spatha Scabbard - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 09-01-2004
Salve<br>
<br>
To fix a bone slider, i have used two pieces from copper alloy wire with a U Section, driven into the wood, like this:<br>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/avitianus/Grfico1.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
I do'nt know how accurate is, but is very strong. <p></p><i></i>
Re: Spatha Scabbard - aitor iriarte - 09-01-2004
Interesting...<br>
I hope to see the real thing in person next week!<br>
That model of slider is, in reality, slightly different from your drawing and seems to be confined inside third century. Anyway, I suppose that you've inserted the slider's 'tenons' into shallow (?) mortises cut into the scabbard's wood. All kinds of bone scabbards seem to be designed to be sunk to some extent into the scabbard's surface.<br>
Another thing, is your scabbard so box-like in cross section as it appears on your drawing?<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
Re: Spatha Scabbard - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 09-01-2004
SALVE<br>
<br>
You'ls see that next week, of course.<br>
<br>
Yes, the section is square. I have use two pieces of thin wood and leather "guttering", all covered with pig skin.<br>
<br>
The shape of the bone slider is orientative, only to show how is atached. I have’nt any photo of that spatha, and don’nt remember exactly how is, but is very close to that.<br>
<br>
Vale <p></p><i></i>
Re: Spatha Scabbard - Lucius Aurelius Metellus - 10-17-2004
Well, this thread almost died, but I still have a few questions that havn't been answered before it does. Is the scabbard straight (by that, I mean is it the same width at the bottom as it is at the top?), or does it taper to a narrower width at the bottom?<br>
Aitor, you mentioned that some bone sliders had holes drilled in them to pass lacing through to make a stronger connection. Would holes drilled in a slider of the style you have on your scabbard be appropriate? I have carved the bone slider for my scabbard, and it looks very similar to yours. Mine has "feet" that will be mortised into the wood and glued, but I have also considered drilling two holes in it to pass the rawhide wrappings through to make it stronger. Would this be ok?<br>
Also, I notice that on your scabbard, you have covered the wrappings of the slider over with the outer covering of the scabbard, but I have seen examples where the slider wrappings were on the outside of the leather scabbard cover. Would this method be ok? <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i></i>
Re: Spatha Scabbard - aitor iriarte - 10-18-2004
Hi Lucius,<br>
I've measured my scabbard slider for you, but it seems to be a little too late, as you've already carved yours!<br>
My sacabbard tapers towards its bottom, I think that the feature is present on the Tetrarchs and other two statues (Ravenna and Turin).<br>
There are some sliders like mine with holes drilled and I think that it is the best solution. unfortunately for me, I realized that when my own scabbard was finished and fixed and I didn't dare to attempt the change...<br>
Notwthstanding, no surviving bone slider exhibits feet...<br>
No, the wrappings on my scabbard are on the outside. You can trace them with difficulty on the photo (red on red!) I used silk cord but rawhide or even copper-aloy wire would be OK.<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
Re: Spatha Scabbard - Lucius Aurelius Metellus - 10-18-2004
Thank you for the information, Aitor. I would still like to know the measurement of your slider, as the one I made only took me about one hour to make, so if it isn't right, I could easily make another. Mine is about 4 inches long. It has decorative grooves carved into the face or top of it, like yours, but mine is slightly "waisted" in the middle. When I described the "feet" on my slider, I meant the little tabs that set into the mortises, like you show in your drawing. I will also drill a small hole in each end of it so that I can pass some of the lacing through. I had considered using rawhide for my lacing, but now that you mention copper alloy wire, I have some of that, too, so I may use that.<br>
I am glad that you say the scabbard is tapered, because I have been studying the Tetrach statue where you found this style of scabbard, and I believe they are tapered, too. I have cut my scabbard blank down to a nicely tapered shape as shown.<br>
Anyway, if you are willing, please send the measurement of your slider, as I am still interested! I will probably finish my scabbard by the end of this week, except for the little brass "beads" for the chape, and the leather scabbard cover, both of which I will have to order. <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i></i>
Re: Spatha Scabbard - aitor iriarte - 10-18-2004
Hi Lucius,<br>
Here they go:<br>
Length without tabs 12 cm (approx. 4 inches and almost 3/4 of an inch) Total length 16 cm (approx. 6 inches 5/16) Max. Width 2,5 cm (Approx. one inch)<br>
The Tetrarchs' sliders are waisted and that at Ravenna, straight. As far as I recall, most surviving sliders or this model are waisted.<br>
I glued very, very thin leather to the wooden scabbard using flour glue.<br>
Good luck and post pics!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
Re: Spatha Scabbard - Lucius Aurelius Metellus - 10-18-2004
Thanks again, Aitor, I will indeed post pictures here when I finish building it. By the way, what do you think those little "discs" are in the grooves along the scabbards on the Tetrarch statue? Maybe little brass discs for decoration? <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i></i>
Re: Spatha Scabbard - aitor iriarte - 10-19-2004
You're welcome, as always, Lucius!<br>
Discs? What discs? We could fill a booklet with all the funny theories based on poor and faulty pics of the Tetrarchs...<br>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tribunus/Tetrarcas.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
I hope that you'll see the grid more clearly now!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=aitoririarte>Aitor Iriarte</A> at: 10/19/04 4:58 pm<br></i>