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Show here your Roman soldier impression - Printable Version

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Re: Show here your roman soldier impression - A_Volpe - 04-23-2011

OOOOH! Thanks!

I had never seen such close, detailed photos of this sculpture, nor at a side angle.

VERY interesting. I like the detail of his sleeves, and gloves.

Almost like looking at a newly discovered piece. Big Grin

Looks like an indication of a 'subarmalis' on his thighs, too.

Very interesting, thanks.

although for me it brings more questions than answers to mull over... Big Grin


Re: Show here your roman soldier impression - Yurko - 04-23-2011

Salve Mr. Volpe,

Only yesterday, (when it arrived) I found two references in the book "Roman Military Dress" that indicate the fascia ventralis being worn over lorica hamata. pp 167-168. One is exactly the reference mentioned by Caballo.

Best regards,


Re: Show here your roman soldier impression - A_Volpe - 04-24-2011

Aaaah! Ok, thanks. I opened up my copy to those pages. Not sure how I missed that, but anyway


Re: Show here your roman soldier impression - Caballo - 04-25-2011

And the fascia ventralis on mail also helps reduce "mail belly", that effect of mail in making our manly stomachs look even larger.....;-)


Re: Show here your roman soldier impression - Graham Sumner - 04-25-2011

Hello Andy

I like the detail of his sleeves, and gloves.

These are not normally interpreted as gloves but turned back cuffs, or perhaps military award bracelets. On page 50 of RMD I show a selection of other examples. Gloves are rarely mentioned but I included all I could find on page 189.

Graham.


Re: Show here your roman soldier impression - Doc - 04-26-2011

Paul,

As far as the photo is attached, thank you for sharing. I too had not seen this sculpture in that much detail.

I know of the evidence of the fascia with respect to "off-duty" soldiers where they wear the fascia over their tunic followed by the belts. However, with respect to wearing this article of clothing over the armor and citing the Vacheres warrior, IMO, is not very good evidence. It's being worn by a person whose identity is questionable. If cavalry, then I do not think infantry reenactors should be wearing it. If it is a Celt dressing like a Roman, he may have added his own flair. To this end, I would not be running around with a fascia as an article of widespread use over armor. Over the tunic, is another story. Even the article by MC Bishop attached did not really claim use over the armor. As a matter of fact, he asks why it is not depicted with armor. I would think that if the Vacheres warrior was good evidence, it would have been included by Dr. Bishop.

However, with respect to the Vacheres Warrior details, the supposed fascia does not go around the entire waist. On the front facing picture there is no such indication since it's not there (at least when I look at it). Most reenactors that I have seen wear this fascia over the mail with the belt over it where some of the fascia appears above and below the edges of the belt. On the profile picture of this sculpture, this fascia does not go above the upper edge of the belt. It appears as a small piece on the lower part of the belt and by the sword. Is it not possible that its presence by the sword is to avoid the scabbard from having direct contact with the mail.


Re: Show here your roman soldier impression - Caballo - 04-26-2011

Quote:Paul,

However, with respect to the Vacheres Warrior details, the supposed fascia does not go around the entire waist.

Thanks- so, just to understand this theory, you are proposing that this is a separate piece of cloth that is attached to part of the belt but does not go all the way round??

And I'd strongly recommend that it is worth (as ever) looking at Graham's book, Roman Military Dress on pages 167-8 as well.


Re: Show here your roman soldier impression - Yurko - 04-26-2011

Paolo,

Excellent eye and good catch for detail. Regarding the Vacheres statue, even Mr. Sumner indicates it being, "A fabric waistband is just visible below the figure's right arm", only? Then the horse directly behind the fascia wearing over hamata figure on pp. 167 might indicate a cavalryman, no? Curious to know why it being accepted practice for the mounted arm and not for an infantryman and why the sculptor chose to model a portion of fabric under the belt just where the sword is worn at the waist? Artistic license? Sculpted from memory?

It would seen logical to wrap the entire waist if you're going to the trouble of protecting the scabbard anyway. Not a very scientific hypothesis on my part, regardless.

Well done to create debate and foster thoughts and additional discussion.


Re: Show here your roman soldier impression - Doc - 04-26-2011

Paul,

Yes, I am suggesting what you mentioned. I will go have a look at the book.


Re: Show here your roman soldier impression - Doc - 04-26-2011

Yurko,

That is one of the great things here on RAT, the ability to discuss and debate. In the end we all learn something that would otherwise not be possible through simple classroom instruction.

It's not protecting the sword per se but maybe the bands that go across the front and meet at the back might catch the mail become damaged or break off at the rivet heads. The rivets holding the decoration on these scabbards are not large and do not really go that deep and therefore can be loosened easily.

Maybe with cavalry it has something to do with the constant bouncing movement on the mount? Maybe the sword snags the armor in that position and the cloth stops this from occuring. With legionaries the movement is appreciably less since they are not mounted.

My two cents.....


Re: Show here your roman soldier impression - Yurko - 04-26-2011

Paolo,

Yes, that is exactly why I am enjoying this forum. Your post made me go back to my new book and take a closer scrutiny of the image.

Good point regarding bouncing in the saddle causing possible equipment failure. Devoid of stirrups would cause "posting" at the trot to be problematic nary impossible. However, that cloth under the belt would need to be secured well or the rider would lose that in just a few paces of bouncing. Possibly the belt could be pulled snug enough or....fascia wrapped around the waist. Now we're back to the beginning of the debate. More statuary, painted/drawn images to study, more delving into the written word to discover the truth. Or possibly a clue given by one knowledgable would be helpful.

I enjoy the thread.


Re: Show here your roman soldier impression - Graham Sumner - 04-26-2011

Hello Yurko

Curious to know why it being accepted practice for the mounted arm and not for an infantryman

It is not accepted practice that the fascia is worn by cavalry and not infantry as the majority of characters who appear to be wearing it in ancient art are infantry. One function of the fascia ventralis would appear to be to protect the tunic from the belt and some supporting evidence for this can be seen in a Vindolanda writing tablet. A possible later waistband may be seen on the Dura Europos Terentius Fresco and a hunting mosaic from Apamea, both referenced in RMD.

However I think the initial question was, what is the evidence for the fabric waistband being worn over mail in the late empire by either cavalry or infantry? I would have to answer none at all as far as I am aware but I would be delighted to hear otherwise.

Indeed I think I only found three pieces of evidence for the fabric belts being worn over armour in the entire Republican or early imperial period combined, one of which is a possible legionary. Only one of those three clearly looks like a fabric belt, the one from the Etruscan relief, while the other two including the warrior illustrated above are not so straightforward to interpret.

Thanks for your PM and I am pleased to hear you like the book!

Graham.


Re: Show here your roman soldier impression - John Conyard - 04-26-2011

Just a quick comment.

The belt when worn over padding and armour fits nicely. Take the paading and armour away, and the belt is too large. But add a sash and it helps the belt still fit over the tunic.


Re: Show here your roman soldier impression - Forty-One - 04-26-2011

Quote:Just a quick comment.

The belt when worn over padding and armour fits nicely. Take the paading and armour away, and the belt is too large. But add a sash and it helps the belt still fit over the tunic.

Can't you just pull your belt tighter? :???:


Re: Show here your roman soldier impression - Doc - 04-26-2011

I think that you would have a belt made to fit your waist without the armor and making sure you have enough leather to wrap it around the armor when in battle mode. Otherwise you need two belts. One with the armor on which would be larger and another belt when off duty to fit the tunic.

Think of the difference in belt plates you would have between an armor size belt and a tunic sized belt.