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Lenticular pattern welded swords - Printable Version

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Lenticular pattern welded swords - Luka Borščak - 08-15-2017

Hi people! I guess this thread is maybe a bit outside of the main area of interest here, but it is relevant... I would like to see examples of lenticular pattern welded blades you have pictures of. They can be later roman, germanic, gothic, or later period, after the fall of Rome, so anglo saxon, frankish etc... I'm having a lenticular pw blade made by Paul Binns so I'm researching what period and culture fitting types could go well with this blade... One example I know of is the famous Sutton Hoo sword. I have seen many hun and gothic lenticular swords but I haven't seen evidence of pattern welding on them...


RE: Lenticular pattern welded swords - brennivs - tony drake - 08-25-2017

Luca I will try to help on this, the Sutton hoo sword has a fuller, what period is your lenticular sword for ? From Roman to Saxon period is a big difference in fittings. Also the context  of the the pattern welded blade in the Roman period is different to the later periods. Miks has a few in his book but most are a sraight forward pattern but it looks like the hilts were organic so just the blade. The blade at Arbiea is pattern welded and were found in a 3rd AD context. So If you could be a give bit more on your thoughts of your blade maybe others may be able to help  Smile
Regards Brennivs  Big Grin


RE: Lenticular pattern welded swords - Luka Borščak - 08-28-2017

About the sutton hoo... Vince Evans inspected the remains of the original before creating a replica and found no evidence that it had a fuller. Check these threads: http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=23746&highlight=sutton+hoo+sword+vince+evans and http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=27914&highlight=sutton+hoo+sword+vince+evans
I am aware that there is a huge difference in fittings between fittings styles between late roman to saxon like sutton hoo. And I know how these styles look mostly. The thing is that I can't really make up my mind if I would like to fit my future sword like a late roman one, or later migration period like sutton hoo or vendel... So I was wondering if a lenticular blade with twisted pattern welded pattern, not straight lines piled, would really fit all these periods if fitted with appropriate fittings... I have seen a multi fullered 3rd century spathas pattern welded, but no lenticular ones... Also, I know goths and huns liked lenticular blades, but I am not sure if they used pattern welding...


RE: Lenticular pattern welded swords - Crispianus - 08-29-2017

(08-28-2017, 09:49 PM)Luka Borščak Wrote: About the sutton hoo... Vince Evans inspected the remains of the original before creating a replica and found no evidence that it had a fuller. Check these threads: http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=23746&highlight=sutton+hoo+sword+vince+evans and http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=27914&highlight=sutton+hoo+sword+vince+evans
I am aware that there is a huge difference in fittings between fittings styles between late roman to saxon like sutton hoo. And I know how these styles look mostly. The thing is that I can't really make up my mind if I would like to fit my future sword like a late roman one, or later migration period like sutton hoo or vendel... So I was wondering if a lenticular blade with twisted pattern welded pattern, not straight lines piled, would really fit all these periods if fitted with appropriate fittings... I have seen a multi fullered 3rd century spathas pattern welded, but no lenticular ones... Also, I know goths and huns liked lenticular blades, but I am not sure if they used pattern welding...

Whilst I wouldn't disagree with Vince Evans interpretation, you have to bear in mind the SH sword was in very poor condition and was still in its mineralised scabbard.. the pics in "The Sutton Hoo Ship Burial, vol 2, arms armour and regalia" do show a couple of cross sections that imply a shallow fuller, though obviously open to interpretation...

A rather poor copy of the pic, in the original you can still see the mineralised fibres of the scabbard lining:

[attachment=14166]

I would suggest checking out "Illerup Adal, vol 11-12, Die Schwerter" as there are several PW blades of lenticular shape and plenty of hilt evidence..
Also the finds from Ejsbøl Mose, link for the later excavation: http://en.unipress.dk/udgivelser/e/ejsb%C3%B8l-mose/volume this one apparantly contains some swords as well, but its the earlier report you want: http://www.worldcat.org/title/ejsbl-waffenopferfunde-des-4-5-jahrh-nach-chr/oclc/611114379 ...
having seen the original excavation finds in Haderslev museum in the 90s I can say the quality was nothing short of amazing many of the hilts were organic (what looked like a light wood) covered in thin sheet metal, unfortunatly the book was too pricy for me at the time....
Ejsbøl finds are at http://www.museum-sonderjylland.dk/SIDERNE/English/Arkeologi-Haderslev/01-Arkeologi.html

Together these should easily cover the 3rd-5th century ad...

Anglo saxon hilts tend to be somewhat different heres a link to EAA publications: http://eaareports.org.uk/topic/anglo-saxon/page/6/ many volumes can be downloaded free, Morning Thorpe and Westgarth Gardens both contain swords though I dont know if any are specifically lenticular..

http://eaareports.org.uk/publication/report38/

http://eaareports.org.uk/publication/report36/


worth getting if your interested in ring swords, a good reference article:
V. I. Evison, The Dover ring-sword and other sword-rings and beads. Archaeologia 101, 1967, S. 63-118

and the Dover report from ADS: http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archives/view/eh_monographs_2014/contents.cfm?mono=1089023

There are plenty of others... IMHO though you would have difficulty stretching it to fit more then a couple of hundred years, there are doubtless exceptions...


RE: Lenticular pattern welded swords - brennivs - tony drake - 08-29-2017

Thanks Ivor for the info, I also not one to disagree with Vince Evans, at Sutton hoo and the BM have had replicas made with a fuller, The cross section Ivor has put up would say fuller but anyway. Back to subject I have looked through Miks now I cannot say I have counted ever one due to the pictures but what I can see lenticular , there are 15 straight welded core blades and 10 with twisted core blades. The one from Arbeia has twisted core so these would take you up to at least 4th AD Roman, with a good amount of fittings to choose from. My thoughts on pattern welded blades during the Roman period is these were made not for the pattern but to make a viable blade considering the vast amount of swords in use during this period, a blacksmith could make more blades from a good piece of steel if wrought iron could be used for the core for private sales. After the fall of the Empire, and iron production collapsed leading to the emergence of the pattern welded blade  which comes to dominate blade construction. So hovering around the Roman period with other cultures it may be hard to find a blade pattern welded with all the good blade material around to make a sword with.
There is also this book,
https://boydellandbrewer.com/the-sword-in-anglo-saxon-england-pb.html
My late dear friend John Anstees work on pattern welding blades was used in the book, he did a vast amount of work on pattern welded blades other wise he might of been able to help  Sad Good luck with your project and please show the outcome  Smile
Regards Brennivs  Big Grin


RE: Lenticular pattern welded swords - Crispianus - 08-29-2017

(08-29-2017, 06:23 PM)brennivs - tony drake Wrote: Thanks Ivor for the info, I also not one to disagree with Vince Evans, at Sutton hoo and the BM have had replicas made with a fuller, The cross section Ivor has put up would say fuller but anyway.

I should point out that before the special section was cut nothing was identifiable "almost unintelligible" despite multiple fractures to the blade, according to the text in TSHSB, so it doesn't suprise me that MKI eyeball didnt reveal anything either at the later date....


RE: Lenticular pattern welded swords - Luka Borščak - 09-09-2017

Thanks for all the info. Btw, I found some very useful info on early pattern welding here: https://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/kap_b/backbone/rb_3_3.html
It seems first true pattern welded swords with twisted rods were already made by late la tene smiths.

Btw, I don't plan to cover to wide period with this sword, I was just curious what are my hilt options with a twisted pattern lenticular blade. I think I will go with one of the late 4th/early 5th century types. I read Tolkien's Lay of Sigurd and Gudrun recently and I think I would like this one to represent the time that inspired these poems... Late Empire, Attila, Burgundians... Beowulf's time too...


RE: Lenticular pattern welded swords - brennivs - tony drake - 09-10-2017

Thanks for the link Luca, I have seen a few le tene swords with a forge welded blades think I have a pic or two if I find them will post. as to J Anstees work on the link the picture shows experiment 1 which was his first thought of the process by experiment 8 John had done a new diagram and refined the model which produced a blade which is in the book I mentioned. If I come across an other info will post. Looking forward to the result of the completed sword, which way you choose to do it Smile 
Regards Brennivs Big Grin