+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Greek Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: Hoplite Shield Designs (/showthread.php?tid=4345)
Re: Hoplite Shield Designs - PMBardunias - 09-05-2007
Quote:Why was it important for the Helots to not be distinguished from the Homioi?
What exactly did the lambda emblem stand for?
I seem to recall reading someplace a theory that the lambda first appeared on the shields of neodamodeis- freed Helots. This makes sense since they would have no heraldry of their own, or if they did the Spartiates would surely wish to supress it.
If true it would be Spartiates conforming to the new uniform standard, not helots looking like homoioi.
Re: Hoplite Shield Designs - hoplite14gr - 09-06-2007
Yannis the detailed answer to your question on Sprta exists in our articles here:
http://www.hellenicdefense.gr/per/is/is009.html
http://www.hellenicdefense.gr/per/is/is010.html
Kind regards
Re: Hoplite Shield Designs - PMBardunias - 09-12-2007
Quote:All Homioi sport the black bull on red background. The perimeter of the shields has one of the 3 decorations depending on which Doric tribe the hoplite belongs. The perioikoi probably had a black bull on the bronze facing and probably triangles on the perimeter being Acheans.
The file leaders probably have high crests and the merarchos probably traverse crest.
Stephanos, what are the references for this? I'm sorry I cannot read greek well enough to follow your links, but are there primary references to the blazon or creast scheme? Is this this idea reconstructed from ancient images?
Re: Hoplite Shield Designs - hoplite14gr - 09-13-2007
The findings of 1916 (British Archeological School) gave emblems that could be devided in 9 categories. These categories were asociated with shrines using ancient writers tests, inscriptions and pottery.
The mora strength was between 400 to 1000 men. Not all of them were citizens. Spartans were keen to distribute casualties and to preserve the citizen body if possible.
Based on pottery we made the distinction between Homioi and Perioikoi.
The same pattern applies for every city state:
Shrine, patron deity, texts, archeological remains.
More when we publish in English.
Kind regards
Re: Hoplite Shield Designs - Zenodoros - 09-13-2007
Any idea on when the theories will be published in English, Stefanos... ?
By the way, I was wondering about the Chigi vase, now the common belief is that it shows Spartans and Messenians because of the apparently "Spartan" boy musician, but he's with the phalanx with their aspides facing the other way, so we can't see their designs. Is there a reason why we seem to identify some of the designs of the other army (the Skiritis bird, Gorgonian and Steniklaros boar) as being Spartan? Is it the assumption that the Spartans would have adopted these native designs into their army?
Re: Hoplite Shield Designs - hoplite14gr - 09-13-2007
Quote:Any idea on when the theories will be published in English, Stefanos... ?Hopefully this summer and I hope that I will find the opportunity to write something in the ancient warfare magazine. Fingers crossed
Quote:By the way, I was wondering about the Chigi vase, now the common belief is that it shows Spartans and Messenians because of the apparently "Spartan" boy musician, but he's with the phalanx with their aspides facing the other way, so we can't see their designs. Is there a reason why we seem to identify some of the designs of the other army (the Skiritis bird, Gorgonian and Steniklaros boar) as being Spartan? Is it the assumption that the Spartans would have adopted these native designs into their army?
The musician is among the Messenians.
The hoplites with visible devices are Spartans and allied clans from other city states are represented too.
The Steyclaros boar was the last mora to be established and the boar was adopted based upon a legendary Treaty of Herakles with the Neilidae clan of Pylos.
The goose of Limnatis appears on the Mac Millan aryvallos with head forward for the Messenians and in the lead tablets with heat looking at each tail for Spartans so the symbol was modified before adoption.
The Spartan army was really acombination of the Laconian Doreans with the Acheans of Geronthrea the Aigidae clan and the Pylian Acheans that crashed in between them the Kesfondidae Doreans of Messenia.
The worst that happen to the coast line Messenians was to take Perioikoi status (Sources Pausanias Plutarch and not only them,)
Kind regards
Re: Hoplite Shield Designs - Zenodoros - 09-14-2007
Thanks again, Stefanos!
Looking forward to reading your work in the future.
Re: Hoplite Shield Designs - Pericles of Rhodes - 12-15-2007
Don’t know if anyone’s seen it but there’s quite a good article on the osprey website by Nicholas Sekunda on hoplite shield designs. Link is here -
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/content2.php/cid=203
There’s also articles by the same author on Greek Military Cuisine and Greek swords and swordmanship amongst others here –
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/content4.php/cid=65
The article recommends a book called ‘The shield devices of the Greeks in art and literature’ by George Henry Chase with 268 different shield blazons, collected chiefly from vase paintings.
Apologies if these have already been mentioned!
Hope this is of help or interest to people!
Re: Hoplite Shield Designs - hoplite14gr - 12-16-2007
George Henry Chase is the Pioneer.
Without him we wouldn't be able to decrypt the shieled devices.
He published in 1906. We started in 2006-Fate at work here
Kind regards
Re: Hoplite Shield Designs - Giannis K. Hoplite - 02-06-2008
Hello everyone.
I'm seeking info on this vase.It's probably Corinthian,but i'd like to know "exact" date and place if possible. I'd like Stefanos to give possible interpretation for some shield device,and that's why we need more,to have a closer speculation.
![[Image: fl.jpg]](http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118/kadoglou_gr/fl.jpg)
Khairete
Giannis
Re: Hoplite Shield Designs - Lochinvar - 02-08-2008
Has anyone got any good suggestions for a Thespian aspis at the time of Thermopylae, or earlier (if that increases the range of possibilities)?
Main device, bordering and thoughts on colour would all be of value. I appreciate that much of this is conjectural, but if the general scheme were in keeping with concensus that would avoid too many insults. :roll:
Thanks in advance.
Re: Hoplite Shield Designs - hoplite14gr - 02-08-2008
Gianni check your P.M.
Ewan Thespians were Beotians and Beotians considred themselves Doreans.
Hence the rim decorations for Hylleis, Dymanes, Pamphileis (3 doric clans) apply.
The old aristokratic families of Beotian Spartoi sported a snake on their shields.
The rest of the Thespians sported a crecent because "lunar" Melena Afrodyte a manifestation of Hekate was the Patron Goddess of the city.
Heros god of love (Desire)had also a sinister warrior like look as a mlae sphinx creature. A Beotian medallion in the Boston Museum of Art is agood image.
Kind regards
Re: Hoplite Shield Designs - Lochinvar - 02-08-2008
Thanks Stefanos. Convoluted or what? :lol:
Would it be reasonable to combine a serpent and a moon?
Where would I need to look for those rim decorations you mention?
I am grateful for your time.
With best wishes.
Re: Hoplite Shield Designs - Lochinvar - 02-08-2008
I can answer my own question as I've just found an earlier post (wave, key and spiral seem to be the answers).
Re: Hoplite Shield Designs - hoplite14gr - 02-08-2008
White serpet in black background if you were born into the Spartoi clan.
Red serpet in white background if you were married into the clan.
These guys were Acheans probably and had triangles on the rim.
I do not endorse the mix of the "high class" serpet with the "commoners" emblem because it would break the taboos of the time.
But again we cannot be 100% sure.
Woops! I forgot also toy mention the doghead of Hekate and there is pottery showing a coplete dog with red eyes.
As for the Doric clans you are right about spiral wave and key.
Kind regards