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Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 01-02-2010
Quote: they had a shoulder harness called a Wytoch. One band went to a cup holding the butt, another to a bridle further forrard than the left hand. So, the whole lance outfit swung through an arc pivoting on the right shoulder/chest. But, we are talking about massive lances.
Anyway, my point is this. That stuff really worked and there is nothing whatever in it that was beyong Alan or Sarmat technology..especially if roman army workshops were available. I ve read many accounts of peopel seeing Alans fiddling about at hip level with saddle likit and bits and pieces. All very hazy and inconclusive. To me, that what you would do with a wytoch.
REf Malcor...yes...kanal vision they call it. Pity. I hope your book on Artor is going well. I ve looked for tamgas at Ribchester but never found any. Arborea and Catterick are on my list for searches. Ref:composite bows, i ll bet the glue on them didnt last long in western Europ's filthy wet climate!!
Sorry to waffle at loength
Rodi
Hello, Rodi
Seems to me that lancers in the reenacting Equites Taifali group do use a wytoch. I suppose the Sarmat-Roman cavalryman employed this harness to sling the lance around his back while employing the bow or other weapons, and probably used it in the same manner as the Polish Husarius. All of the remaining illustrations of Sarmatian contusarii are too vague, agreed.
As for the steppe bow in Britain's climate, the Vatican illustration was penned about 200 years after the Romans left Britain (assuming they did abandon the Isle, which I doubt). I use 2 bows built from original materials. When the weather is damp/rainy, I lose about 5 pounds draw-strength. The original bows were made with sturgeon glue, or other fish glue, which was water-resistant. This is not the same as hide glue. Strangely enough, the Vatican illustration also shows scale armor. When you look at it, you can see the links between the Sarmatians, Romans, and finally the Britons.
With Malcor we find the old adage-- mostly wrong most of the time, but not totally wrong all of the time. She and Morris would have made a pair. :roll:
As for the novel? Novels are fiction. Basically, I connected the original "Tewdrig filus Theithfallt" to a possible father, Fritigern. According to Darrell Wolcott, the original Theithfallt was "foreign" and born c. 350. I think 360 would be a better date, as this would place him entering Britain c. 396 when Stilicho seems to have shipped the Equites Taifali into Britain. There is a link between the earlier Theithfallt/Tudwal (Thiudebalth) with the later man by the same name who married the daughter of Pepio. Either he or his son Tewdrig was the cavalryman who called himself "the Bear." The Equites Taifali Seniors were the Bears (as on their shields). This family originally started out associated with non-Britons, aka the Irish Desii; but after the link with Pepio's Gwentians, the family became the richest and most powerful in sub-Roman Britain (according to Prof. Snyder). There is a link, perhaps far more than a novel's fiction. 8)
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 01-02-2010
Alan..Greetings fra the Auld Country. Your fam territoire lo0king gey bra after all the snow we had! We ve had a Massachusetts winter!
I had a good smile when you posted back because you always rattle on and suddenly come up with real juicy chestnuts! That info on the Taefali re enactment is really super.
How can one contact this lot??? Its a vital link because I am writing a lengthy piece reaffirming the Polish Sarmaty connection.
Your stuff on Taefali per se is beyond me and initially made me very subdued since I really didnt know these people at all after all these years of research. However, in this game, there are always unexploded information bombs waiting to blast the innocent and naive!
But the project has got some good progress on Sarmatian cattle. Boring stuff! But, hungry tropps and worn out saddlery..you know the score.
If you want some Tamga samples for your novel, tell me. I have plenty. Sarmat family names too.
Malcor wasted herself. It all got silly and unpleasant I think which wasted all that effort. That accursed film is something i ll never forget. Holy God what a poor thing it was.
I am also writing a piece about "Saxon apartheid" in Post Roman Britain. A lot of my explanation hinges around The Saxon Shore Forts and a Saxon Jute/Sjo Mennesken/zee meuwen gang..a sort of Hanse mafia controlling the maritime hinterlands. I have dredged endlessly for ruiters or sailing docs/pilots of Roman period for English waters and had zero success. One hoped for target was to establish some residues of the Dogger bank which I feel remained, however battered and reduced, well into the Roman period.
B regs Rodi
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 01-02-2010
s for the steppe bow in Britain's climate, the Vatican illustration was penned about 200 years after the Romans left Britain (assuming they did abandon the Isle, which I doubt). I use 2 bows built from original materials. When the weather is damp/rainy, I lose about 5 pounds draw-strength. The original bows were made with sturgeon glue, or other fish glue, which was water-resistant. This is not the same as hide glue. Strangely enough, the Vatican illustration also shows scale armor. When you look at it, you can see the links between the Sarmatians, Romans, and finally the Britons.
Separate reply!
I agree. I reckon many romans not on Gov payroll stayed...for lack of choice and feeling that things at home were crapper than the crap in BLighty. Always felt that these were the guys with the contacts to recruit horse bullies and Germanic infantry back on the mainland. I think they disappear from history for reasons of what Russians called "Systemic collapse"..things like collapse of international letters of credits etc. I have never heard of a single garum discovery in UK after 400 and not of pozzolana imports either. But, it doesnt mean the Romans jacked it all in.
The lamella armour too was used by Sarmaty/Husaria and if you look at the Bayeux taps, I reckon its lamella one can see.
Hadndt though of fish glue but the bows sound like lovely ladies indeed.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 01-02-2010
Back to you, Rodi
The bows were made by Csab Grozer. Oh, yes-- great to shoot, so so smoooth! One of them is made from gray cattle horn, the other from buffalo.
The man you should talk to is John Conyard. He's an RAT member, and also a very active member of the new Equites Taifali. Sometimes he posts on these threads.
My strange connection to the Taifali came from writing the novel. My heroine was a Taifala who married Fritigern. Then, when Googling "Taifali," I found "Equites Taifali" by sheer luck. It was a case of fiction becoming reality. In the novel, I had the martyr Saba as a lector in the Gothic Church. A week ago, I discovered he WAS a lector-cantor. Too strange!
hock: This tidbit topped off my theory that Theithfallt's (Thiudebalth) father, recorded in Welsh as Teithrin/Tryhaearn, may have been Fritigern. Add more fuel-- Fritigern was a Balth, and his theoretical son was Thiud-e-balth, the "the Bold Prince" in the Gothic language.So anyway, contact John or Google up the Equites Taifali (part of a larger British reenactment unit, Comitas I think).
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 01-02-2010
THanks for that. I ll contact Mr Conyer asap..once I have worked out how to use the RAT system. These sites bemuse me overmuch!
Yes..Its curious how these "coincidences" crop up and they are spooky. I worked on sarmaty for years and paid no attention to the Lancashire/Brit connection. Simply had no interest and barely knew of it. Then someone wrote to me asking things..I think because of stuff I put in a Polish academic revue. "What" they asked, "did iknow of Jazyges in Ribchester". Well, of course, I didnt. But the hairs on the back of my head prickled a bit. One side of my family comes from Ribchester. We always ignored the fort. Other bits of the family lived in Roman way housess on the old Affetside route which was all Jazyge horse route stuff. All very peculiar. There is something else. Asp is an Alan word for horse. It means nothing in an England whre Egyptian reptile asps werent known about until hundreds of years after Sarmaty came here. But, Clitheroe and thereabouts..Forest of Bowland, have a few family names that interest. Aspin, Aspdin, Aspinal are but a few. Totally sarmatian names. No escape from that fact. |I ve doen similar with Polish names..of coruse, its easier out there, More of em!
Salud Rodi
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 01-03-2010
Hailog Rodi,
Asp no questions, get no answers. :lol:
Sounds like these were families of horsemen, alright. And then there was the famous Aspar, the Alanic magister militum of the Eastern Empire around the time of Riothamus. :wink:
Keep in touch with any new finds. Thanks.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - jkaler48 - 01-03-2010
Quote:Ron Andrea:1l7pbogi Wrote:As to the first point, I must vehemently deny that. First of all, Roman cavalry did not dismount to fight. I don’t know where you found that but it’s absolutely untrue. It was to the contrary a Germanic thing, ride to battle but fight on foot.
If the Romans regarded Caesar's advice highly they did not often dismount Cavalry to fight on foot:
"caes.spain.15": [15] It invariably happens in encounters of cavalry that when the troopers dismount to charge the infantry, the match proves unequal, as happened on the present occasion. For a select body of the enemy's light-armed foot, coming unexpectedly upon our horse, they alighted to sustain the charge. Thus in a very little time, from a cavalry it became an infantry engagement, and again from an infantry changed to a cavalry engagement, in which our men were driven back to their very lines; but being there reinforced, about a hundred and twenty-three of the enemy were slain, several forced to throw down their arms, many wounded, and the rest pursued quite to their camp. On our side, three were slain, besides twelve foot-soldiers and five troopers wounded.
Mounted troops did dismount to fight like Veteran's and some bodyguard troops but they were mounted Infantry not Cavalry.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Ron Andrea - 01-09-2010
I said that? I don't know enough about Roman military technique to be so didactic. :oops:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - ArthuroftheBritons - 01-30-2010
Interesting disscussion but Gildas exaggerates too much. Interestingly enough it is recorded that a new unit of Scholae Scutariium Cataphractariiwas named the Equites Scutarii Aureliaci and was probably under the command of Ambrosius Aurelianus' father. It is never mentioned before AD420, meaning the men could still be veterans and train other men in AD460 when Ambrosius rose to power. Who said heavy cavalry didn't exist in Britannia at this time?
Note: Arthwys ap Mar's great-grandfather was the last Dux Britannium who commanded not only the Equites Cataphractarii inuores the Equites Talifalia but Linda Melcor's famous Sarmatians as well
hock: (For extensive reasearch on Arthwys read The Mammoth book of King Arthur by Mike Ashley) Also Arthwys was born AD465 and died in AD520, the exact dates for the historic King Arthur hock:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Ron Andrea - 01-30-2010
Gildas wrote in a different time, to a different audience, for a different purpose. We shouldn't fault him for not living up to our needs, but we should never forget that he doesn't.
Somewhere earlier on this thread, Robert Vermaat indicated the weakness with the claims of veteran units or units of veterans so long after the departure of the legions, though I don't know if he addressed those specific units.
I'm not at all impressed with Malcor's scholarship . . . or lack thereof.
That time period certainly sounds right for the "historical" Arthur. I'd like for him to have existed, but must admit to being unsure we'll ever have proof one way or the other.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 01-30-2010
You may may all be interested to know that my own latest record of Taefaly is in Tealby Lincs. It came as real surprise. If anyone visited that area it would be worth looking for tamgas. If they were there ,assuming the Taefali had them, they would remain now.
Ref discussions about cav fighting on foot, I can only comment viz Sarmatian cav etc and not Roman and they were famed for hating and despising both that and even walking at all! A lot of records refer to that and that they were pretty pathetic militarily if forced to dismount. I do agree that the Goths were a foot soldier bunch and in reaility these divisions remained right up until 1939 45. The Taefali re enter the equation because they seem to have been a Germanic crowd...proto Goths...who got absorbed by the sarmatians and learned the cav business. One can imagine them retaining their infantry skills and using them if need be and probably having variants in kit that allowed it.
Thre is something about Gildas that is infuriating. I am sure that a lot of his stuff is useful but the agenda led stuff is so prolific you end up not believing any of it or of anything else. Compare that with Jordanes who also had an agenda but who is hugely readable and credible..and he makes his bias clear.
Vix heavy cav discussios and dates, John Conyard sent me pics of his Taefali Cav equipped in Ribchester style..lancers at that. Very impressive and worth seeing. It isnt heavy cav as per 12 century, say, but pretty heavy for it's day. And he has a trooper with kontus too.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Robert Vermaat - 01-31-2010
Quote:Thre is something about Gildas that is infuriating. I am sure that a lot of his stuff is useful but the agenda led stuff is so prolific you end up not believing any of it or of anything else. Compare that with Jordanes who also had an agenda but who is hugely readable and credible..and he makes his bias clear.Something???
hock: I think there is a whole lot about Gildas that is infuriating... :twisted: I mean, here we have almost an eyewitness to one of the most interesting yet most clouded periods that I can think of. And what does the guy do? He writes a SERMON! Not a history, it can be used very limited that way, but a SERMON... Infuriating.Jordanes also has an agenda, but for a historian.. And credible? A lot isn't.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 02-02-2010
Quote:Note: Arthwys ap Mar's great-grandfather was the last Dux Britannium who commanded not only the Equites Cataphractarii inuores the Equites Talifalia but Linda Melcor's famous Sarmatians as well
Hello ArthuroftheBritons,
Your ideas sound logical, possibly. But who was Arthwys ap Mar's grandfather whom you consider as the great-grandfather of "Arthur?" :?
Who were Linda Malcor's "famous Sarmations" in the fifth century? And who was the commander of these (mostly unproven) three cavalry units? I would believe both Taifali alas were there. That might account for the "bear" (Arthur) and the subsequent popularity of a dragon that ended up on the Welsh national flag.
A quick read of Wolfram, might be in order. More likely, the Taifali were actually Sarmatians,; they lived in wagons not houses. They appear to be attached to the Tyrfingi by the early 200s, and they remained under the Tyrfingi until 376 when they were refused entry into Thrace. I think I mentioned Tealby in these threads over a year ago.
Mike Ashley wrote an interesting book, but everything in it is speculation. When someone says that a man was born in "AD485," they have no way of proving it. Also, whomever was the original "Arthur" was not "Arthwys." Arthwys was a name; it had to arrive after the "th" arrived in Old Welsh (post 600), and was not present in the Brythonic language. This indicates that "Arthur"-- a signum or nickname-- came from a different language and culture.
I would speculate that foreign culture arrived in Britain through the Roman military, particularly an officer. At that time, most Roman officers were Alemanni, Franks, Alans, and particularly Goths. See the well-founded complaints of Synesius toward Theodosius for stacking the army with Gothic officers, and the laments of Ammianus on the same subject.
Also, before we condemn Gildas for giving us the only feeble "record" from this era, it might well be prudent to wonder if he may have also penned a history that became subsquently lost. :roll:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 02-03-2010
I ve tried for years to pin a Sarmatian on going presence down in Ribchester and the Ribble Valley/Clitheroe, |Forest of Bowland etc. Visited lots of times. Result? Ruddy nix. Nihil. Fraid to say that in my view its all suppositions, however lovely. I wish it were different. The bear doesnt sound very Sarmat to me, it sounds Germanic. The Taifali, according to Marija Gimbutas were Goth types early on, (no surprise given their early location) and then Sarmatianised for reasons that can be reasonably surmised.
Foreign culture from Romans? All of it? I dont think that is the case. Viszkaya UK links in the S West and West were very very strong, well served with shipping, even through Roman times and had been long before. The various Ingaphonic groups had always been immensely active on the East Coast and remained so throughout the European period too. That is becoming increasingly clear as genetic mapping becomes safer and more broadscale . That said, I am have always felt that the Roman garrisons did import huge chunks of culture into UK. The amount of garum/oil amphorae etc found in disuses harbours tells us that. How did ever end up with such rotten cooking as we have, given the pedigree?
Salud Rodi
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Conal - 02-03-2010
Quote:Mike Ashley wrote an interesting book, but everything in it is speculation. When someone says that a man was born in "AD485," they have no way of proving it. Also, whomever was the original "Arthur" was not "Arthwys." Arthwys was a name; it had to arrive after the "th" arrived in Old Welsh (post 600), and was not present in the Brythonic language. This indicates that "Arthur"-- a signum or nickname-- came from a different language and culture.
Where is the "th" arriving post 600 attested please?