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Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Ron Andrea - 02-03-2010
Unlikely that Gildas wrote a now-lost history. He wouldn't have seen the need--that's why his screed is so devoid of historical details. He was preaching against the apostasy and moral failings of his generation of Britons and assumed that his readers--most of whom would have been clerics like himself--knew all the details about recent (to them) events.
If he'd known his missive was going to be read for 1500 years, do you think he might have dressed it up a bit?
No, I don't either. That was just Gildas. :lol:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 02-03-2010
Quote:Where is the "th" arriving post 600 attested please?[/quote]
Hello Conal & everyone,
That's a good question. And unfortunately I'm house-sitting and away from my complete library. Various statements have proposed it as "Artur" in the sub-Roman vernacular. I'm not sure if there is a Brythonic thesaurus, but if there is I'd like to have one. The closest language to Brythonic was Gallic, both P-Celtic. The Thesaurus Linguae Gallicae chronologically goes from "Teutomotus, Teumatus" to "tigernius." There is no "th." In Gallic, the bear is recorded as "artos."
On the other hand, High Latin (used by Gildas) has the "th." The only Germanic language written during this period (prior to 383) was Gothic, aka the Bible of Ulfilas. Here the "th" is recorded as a "p" with a vertical line stuck through it. I think this also shows up in Old English. All other Germanic languages don't arrive until after 800. Based on the above, I believe my statement was correct. :wink:
As per Gildas. I think it was Haig who theorized that he may have composed a history. Whether it was Gildas or not, someone had gathered a Brut prior to Nennius. A quick read of Nennius shows he consulted two different Bruts.
And this may lead credence to Geoffrey of Monmounth's statement that he used an "old book in the British tongue." Nonetheless, we cannot poke fingers at Gildas. His tract is invaluable. It shows how Romanized the Britons were, and that the isle had intellectuals.Turning to the so-called Sarmation connection and Ribchester. Perhaps way over-played by Malcor. Sarmatian is an extremely dead language. Close to it Old Iranian has "arta" as meaning "righteousness." Not exactly the the bear! 8) I think the connection was Taifali, not Sarmatian; and I think the Equites Taifali were in the south-west. They spoke Gothic and rode as the Tyrfingi cavalry for eight generations until the split in 376. Interestingly, they joined the Greutungi, were defeated by a Gothic Roman officer, and then sent enmass to the Po Valley. This is were the steppe gray cattle entered the Western Empire, and then subsequently, we find genetically similar cattle in France.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 02-03-2010
Quote:Jordanes also has an agenda, but for a historian.. And credible? A lot isn't.
Hello, Robert
That's a very good point. But should we be looking at the errors of Jordanes or actually at Cassiodorus, whom Jordanes copied?
There's been a lot of "Jordanes-bashing" lately by revisionist historians. Some just avoid the subject, like Heather and Matthews. I guess everyone knows my thoughts on Heather. :roll: Here is a guy you wouldn't want in your legio! Then we have Kulikowski who dismisses Jordanes as bunk, particularly the passages about the Greutungi kingdom in what is now Russia. Then-- Ka-blam!-- someone discovers a Gothic prince's grave in Sarmara. Oops. Kulikowski is red-faced. :oops:
All the new guys are laughing at ethogenesis, and then Kulikowski says, "Iuthungi [Greutungi], Iazyges, or Tervingi, for example-- which seem to designate groups that shared a sense of kinship and engaged in common actions for that reason." Well, to me that sounds a lot like ethnicity or at least common culture.
Recently, Professor Barbero has sided with Wolfram, yet perhaps more carefully. To him, Goths speak Germanic and physically resemble Germans. Well, so did many Sarmatians who intermarried with Goths, specifically the Taifali (whom Kulikowski fails to mention above). Barbero gives us the best Roman-Gothic interaction to date; and he shows the high numbers of Gothic officers that controlled the Roman army exactly at the time when Rome (supposedly) pulled out of Britain. If the Equites Taifali did enter Britain at this time, their likely commanders would have been Taifali or Gothic, not Italian Roman. And they would have carried a Germanic language influence onto the isle, aka the "th."
In all fairness, then, we still have two scholarly "camps" on the Gothic question, and cannot sumarily dismiss Jordanes even though he is problematic and sandwiched legend into history. Simply because there is a hazy line between the two; and history depends on the views of the men who wrote it, or who are revising it. :wink:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - ArthuroftheBritons - 02-03-2010
Alanus,
I appologise for my linguistic mistake... The name in contempory Brythonic was Arthuis, in Welsh Arthwys, and in Latin Artorius. :lol: And as for the Scutarii Aureliaci I was sceptical too, but google the unit's name and you'll find some good info in the third link from the top.
PS. Arthuis' grandfather was Coel Hen, the last Dux Britannium.
And here is something interesting... in the Welsh poem Pa Gur Bedwyr was said to weild a 'four pronged spear' and Scandanavian sagas of the Arthurian era speak of 'four sided mail piercing weapons'. All this seems to point to an armour piercing spear which used a pyramid of iron as the tip. An interesting fact is that Bedwyr was said to be one handed, meaning that it couldn't be the famous Contos. Any thoughts on what it was like? Could any reenactors try it out and post the pictures here?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Ron Andrea - 02-03-2010
Throwing a spear one handed would be hard enough standing on the ground, but how 'bout from horse back--without stirrups?
Doesn't fit the stereotypical image of Mallory's knights in shining armor, but it's probably closer (except the one-handed part) to the mode of horse-borne warfare in sub-Roman Britain.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 02-03-2010
Quote:The bear doesnt sound very Sarmat to me, it sounds Germanic. The Taifali, according to Marija Gimbutas were Goth types early on, (no surprise given their early location) and then Sarmatianised for reasons that can be reasonably surmised.
Back to you, Dashydog
It looks like Gimbutas got it backwards. Let's look at the geographical placement of the Taifali when they are first recorded. They follow the Roxolani ("light-alani") in westward movement. The Roxolani appear to certainly be an Alanic subtribe. Then the Goths arrive onto the Black Sea littoral. The Goths are followed by the Alani, yet the Taifali join the Goths through some kind of foedus. It seems the Taifali are "cleaved" from the Alanic migration by the Tyrfingi Goths; the Taifali live in "wagons" (fm Wolfram), the Alani live in "wagons" (fm Ammianus), and the Tryfingi live in "houses." To me, that makes the Taifali a Sarmatian culture that subsequently became Gothicised.
Now the bear. A quick study shows the bear important in all cultures of the temperate forests. Britons carved bear amulets from jet, a "magic" stone. Gauls worshiped a bear goddess, aka the "Berne piggy-bank." The Goths lived east of the Celts, influenced by them, and they lived west of the Alanic culture, another influence. In fact, Gothic and Alanic cultures were similar; both worshiped the sword Tyrfing stabbed ritually upright in a mound of rocks (Excalibur?). We see this in the very name of the Gothic Tryfingi, "people of the sword."
Same with the bear. Alanic ritual cups (many from Filippovka) have bear-shaped handles, also bears as cauldron handles. They are round-bottomed and must be passed from one individual to the next. The Russians (Metz, Alekseev, Korolkova) give a good account, noting that the cups held "houma," the same as Indic "souma," a drug that supposedly "was to them life in health, strength in weakness, medicine in sickness, the restoration of youth in old age" (Korolkova). Sounds like von Eisenbach's Parsifal!
hock: What we have here is the same type of bear-oriented cup first mentioned by the Breton monk Waleran (c. 700). But it's actual name is first mentioned in Gothic as the ritual "dails, small portions of something greater," then in subsequent etymology as the cup itself-- gradalis, gradale, graal, grele-- the Grail. It was no coincidence that the Breton monk lived just above the Taifali in France, or that other Taifals were (most likely) stationed in Briton where the bear was carried on 500 Taifali Senior shields. I would call the bear nearly a universal symbol, straight across connected cultures-- Britons, Gauls, Goths, Taifals, Alans-- west to east, in an unbroken sequence of mutual recognition.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 02-03-2010
ArthuroftheBritons, back to you
Interesting four-sided weapon. Almost like a pilum. Whatever it was, it must have pulled out hard!
hock: A contus had a standard "European spear head," even those found in Asian archaeological digs. Arrows were three-sided, "trilobate."Ron has made a good point. Not easy to throw from horseback. But upon the ground, the pilum was standard early on. I think John Conyard's guys use the newer models, sort of like a six-pack.
Coel Hen. Apparently through Theodosius the Elder. Yes, and it's believed he gave subsequent commands to Cunedda and one or two other guys.
The Dux Britannarium equates with a "gwledig," and the Count of Britain could have been Britonized into "amberwydr," or something like that-- aka "imperitor."Good work. Keep searching,
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - ArthuroftheBritons - 02-04-2010
Sorry for the misconception, but it wasn't a throwing spear, it was usedfrom the horse and never left the hand. And yes, I thought it was like a pilum too.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - ArthuroftheBritons - 02-05-2010
Please don't leave me hanging... I need this info for a film I'm doing. If it's any help this could probably be used for shock cavalry. And I still need things like length. And are any reenactors up to the challenge of making and using one?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - John Conyard - 02-05-2010
I read this thread with a mixture of mystification, puzzlement and horror. I certainly do not want to get in the way of any potential novels or films. But …….
After a generation in northern Italy our version of the Taifali are into Italian chic, red wine and fine food. Our wagons aren’t for living in, but carrying unlimited supplies of lambrusco. More importantly our belt fittings are fashionable and very Roman.
[attachment=1:uxum2xoc]<!-- ia1 Taifali 1.JPG<!-- ia1 [/attachment:uxum2xoc]
Raised for Honorius as a Roman cavalry unit, equipped as Roman horsemen by Roman factories, we’ll be back with the Gaulic field army by the early 5th century like many other units from Britain. I’ll be writing to you from my Dad’s place in Brittany trying French wine and fine food. Rather more cosmopolitan than Lincolnshire cuisine.
Cavalryman can throw most things from horseback, including very 3rd century javelins with square cross section heads. I don’t like using them much since they don’t seem very 4th century, but the penetrate the target well and our public shows are competitive. The public likes to see javelins punch through the target and they give one “an edge”.
Lacking Roman factories, with old helmets ripped up for bullion value, post Roman cavalry would sport perhaps some form of armour, shields and cheap simple weapons like javelins. Perhaps the occasional high status sword.
[attachment=2:uxum2xoc]<!-- ia2 Ribchester.jpg<!-- ia2 [/attachment:uxum2xoc]
Certainly none of the short seax knives that are late to arrive in the UK. They don’t need a kontos to engage infantry or other cavalry, and lack the capacity to repair any old asymmetrical recurve bows left behind by the Romans. Saddles could even be rare and examples with high cantles limited to high status warriors.
[attachment=0:uxum2xoc]<!-- ia0 Steppe saddle.JPG<!-- ia0 [/attachment:uxum2xoc]
Such cavalry would perhaps mirror the so-called Anglo-Saxon nobles fighting as cavalry on the “other side”, and as occasional allies. It could even be had to tell them apart. History is rarely simple. Lucky reconstruction is far more straightforward.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - ArthuroftheBritons - 02-05-2010
Thank-you! Don't worry about getting in the way, I'm glad to be getting the help. Just to let you know I am a big fan, your notes on the cavalry have been the inspiration for most of my work. Good to know there is archaeological evidence for this spear. Do you think it could have been copied and enlarged for the purpose of punching through armour and use in shock cavalry? It is interesting to note that Ambrosius Aurelianus was the son of a Roman govenor whose estates were right next door to Dumnonia, a virtual paridise for bronze workers. All of your scale armour seems to be bronze. With Ambrosius being the son of a govenor do you think he had the ability to keep cavalry (In particular your unit) units working and stable until the late fith century? If so do you think that a lack of armoured cavalry is a reason for the downfall of "Arthur" at Camallan in AD520? Also what are the dimensions of these javelins and what proportion would they need to be enlarged by for a useful one handed cavalry spear?
PS: Could anyone find out if the tin mines in Dumnonia were productive enough to make a full scale armour curaisse for 1200 cavalrymen? It is all right if you give the stats benefits like "hand me downs" and "fixer-uppers".
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - John Conyard - 02-06-2010
There are the odd find of high status Swanton class B1 spearheads with a square cross section, probably made to fit on the standard spear of up to 9 feet. Some believe it is for throwing, but I have a large version which is really designed for hand to hand. It is a terrifying weapon and heavy to use.
I come from Cornwall and as a lad was deeply interested in Cornish tin mining. I suspect your question lies not in the amount of tin and copper in the ground but the ability to pay and feed the miners, workman and ancillary staff.
I suspect the Taifali even when brigaded with a fellow unit would be lucky to mount 200 men in the early fourth century Roman army. No post roman kingdom would be able to come close to that figure of regular trained horsemen. I would expect a few armoured high status leaders, plus a following of less armoured riders with the primary tactic being based on throwing spears without an ability to fight in close order with hand combat weapons.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Robert Vermaat - 02-06-2010
Hi Ron,
Quote:Unlikely that Gildas wrote a now-lost history.I agree, but Gildas most likely depended on sources that are now lost. Only, we must wonder at what this source or sources were. Probably not one, but how many? And of what quality?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Robert Vermaat - 02-06-2010
Quote:PS. Arthuis' grandfather was Coel Hen, the last Dux Britannium.And were is the proof that Coel Hen was
a) a historical figure (What was his real name, for instance)? Other 'contemporary persons' in such pedigrees (and subsequent mythology) are Gwawl (a personification of Hadrian's Wall) and Stratwawl (the 'Wall Road').
b) That a person named Coel Hen was indeed ever Dux Brittaniarum? As far as I know, this was a speculation by John Morris.
Also, you have to write your real (first) name in your signature (profile). That's a forum rule.
Hi Alan,
Quote:Coel Hen. Apparently through Theodosius the Elder. Yes, and it's believed he gave subsequent commands to Cunedda and one or two other guys.Well, Cunedda could have been 'summoned' by anyone from Magnus Maximus to Vortigern and others.. The famous dating of Cunedda is (unfortunately) not very secure.
So far, it's still unknown what is exactly meant by 'gwledig', but 'prince' as well as 'leader' or 'landowner' are known. I have never, though, seen it equated with Dux Britanniarum, which was a Late Roman command which was never equated by anyone later bearing that suffix or title.
Comes Brittaniarum, similarly, does not equate with 'imperator', either. Maybe a particularly powerful leader claimed both titles.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 02-06-2010
E[b]vening Alanus, or morning. I trust your power is still on!
A few answers for you.
Taifali...In years of Sarmatian studies I have never heard them mentioned in any record until they appear in company of the Goths in the latter's Pontus state.. I agree with those who say they wre sarmatianised and became cav.
There were, as you say, countless Alan/Goth marriages and "couplings". Much as they loathed each other (nothing changes) they also used each other. The loathing, I have always supposed that incompatible law in terms of ownerships and inheritance dut to different origins caused endless hatred.
"Peoples of the forested west" ??? Sarmatians??? Nope. Cant support that. Not many trees East of the Euxine Meer! They might have picked up a bear tradition from the Goths in the latter days, though. They did have a pantheon rich with wolves, eagles, cows, horses and deer. The white wolf, it seems, was king of all these animals. There are recrods of Skythians eating bears for special ceremines.
When you saids "monk in Brtanny", did you mean Britanny or Armorica?
AS for Sword worshipping stuff, Skythians worshipped swords too and in a very grisly way. OK Skythians merged with Sarmatians but they were both at the sword thing before they merged. I always though the sword symbol waqs interesting as a Cross symbol of Christianity..potentially. Warrior priests later on??
Ref: Those remarks about bronze in Dumnonia. Not my thing but I do recall that in the 1000's (1047?) massive sea flooding swamped a most vital part of Dumnonia lying between Cornwall and Scilly which was also the site of much Punic copper and bronze trading with the locals. It has all been underwater since. The boom kotters from Newlyn seem to pick up a lot of good bits out that way. No Artorian swords though, sad to inform.
One last thing. Sarmatian was not dead until fairly recently. It was a recognised language of Jayzyges in the 1600 1700.s
Scuse typing.....this font half blinds me
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