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Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Rumo - 03-29-2010
Quote:one name stem that also drives me bats and it is AS or Asp. As in Aspar, Asparuch. AS as a name stem crops up all through Alan, Sarmat and Bulgarian historyAnd Aspen, asparagus, aspersion :lol: And don't get me started on as-
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Conal - 03-30-2010
Quote:Btw, I took your point on Vortimer on 'the other forum', and altered my page once more. I guess I relied far too much on secondary sources, which is a mistake for a historian. :oops:
'the other forum' ???????
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - cagwinn - 03-30-2010
Quote:Vortigern Studies:dnftj28o Wrote:Btw, I took your point on Vortimer on 'the other forum', and altered my page once more. I guess I relied far too much on secondary sources, which is a mistake for a historian. :oops:
'the other forum' ???????
Arthurnet. Robert and I have been active on there for many, many years now.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Robert Vermaat - 03-30-2010
Hi Chris,
Quote:Well, I have by no means read the man's full body of workClearly. His standards of work must have improved since then, because Bachrach is held to be a good author when it comes to Early Medieval studies, an expert of Merovingian history etc. He wrote many historical studies since 1973, many of them military studies, and including plenty of source material. :wink: I have no doubt he would write a different study about the Alans these days.
Quote: His attempts to find Alanic or Sarmatian settlements in every western European place name that even remotely resembles these two ethnic names is notably shoddy (he doesn't even consider, no less mention other etymological possibilities for the names). Some of his statements about the Bretons are true head scratchers.Bachrach is a historian, not a linguist. And again, he did his research in the same period when Alcock and Morris did theirs, with probably the same results.
Quote:For me, a much more useful resource on Alanic history is Agusti Alemany's "Source on the Alans" (if any of you haven't seen it, you can read a fair amount of it on Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=8bZ4c5oZpNAC ). I prefer reading the primary sources, themselves, minus too much speculation (ala Bachrach).Clearly, and no doubt he profited from the fact that his book was published 27 years after Bachrach's.
And even Alemany did not refrain from using Bachrach as a reference, so he can't have been all that bad.
Quote:I saw that you changed your article - I did notice spelling errors, thoughNoted and changed. Happens when you're in haste. One misspelling was from CISP, I guess - should've checked.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Conal - 03-31-2010
So, miss spellings aside ... am I to take it that there is no 'direct' evidence of Alanic settlement in Armorica itself merely that they were buffered by them?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-01-2010
Hi guys,
I've heard Cagwinn's explanation of the origin of the name "Alan" before. Yet how odd it is that such a "popular" Celtic name does not show up in the pedigrees until about four generations after Saloman, who indeed may not have been Celtic since his own name could easily be taken from the old reference to "salta mon," ie "he who uses salt," oft a nobleman of Germanic or Alanic extraction.
Plenty of inuendo here on the Alans boardering Armorica, but no mention of the Taifali who lived just southwest along the Loire. Here too we have a horse culture. I wonder about the date of the socalled Amorican rebellion of 448. The episode is also in the Life of Saint Germanus, written not long after his death. Germanus personally stopped King Eothar (Goar) from advancing on Roman orders into Armorica. Yet in 448, Germanus was tippering off to the Heavenly Santum, having crapped off in Ravenna.
As for Bachrach, maybe he was a loose-cannon scholar. But he did find Alans under every rock in Gaul, a few more rocks than I think the gravel-pit held. :wink:
PS: And thanks to whomever mentioned that the reference to Britons cutting out Alanic women's tongues was inaccurate and unfounded, especially when we consider the number of intermarriages between the two reasonably close cultures. The old Brut used by Nennius even claimed the Britons descended from "Alanus, the first man in Europe."
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 04-01-2010
Greetings all. Alanus, I know a few speakers of different type of Gallic and medi Breton etc. Their "Alan" words are nothing like those Cachwin proposes. And, extensive dredging through old histories of the Empire show no Alan place names. So, in Armorica, one assumes, they were "New" names and came with the visitors. Northern Italy is different. There are older Alan place names that are from the Roman period and they are provenly Alan.
This business of insisting that Alan place names are not to do with Alans and to do with Mr Furry Fox etc etc Doesnt make sense to me. This is like saying that Friston and Frisby are nothing to do with the Frijsers, despite massive documentation on that score, and are merely places named in Norsk not Saxon/Fries..so that their real names are "Hairdresser Village" and "Hairdresser town". Yeah...right!! It must that then.
FYI, after Germanus stopped Goar, I always assumed that the latter paused only and then carried on going into Armorica. Cant recall why or where I learned that.
The Taefali were a mystery to me until this forum got me interested. I dont know if it helps but you could examine the hiistory of the Antai and also the Vandals. The latter are very contentious matter!!!! They were variously called Venedi, Venetii etc etc and all sorts of crackpot theories surround them, including a connection with Armorica. But some of the material, in the latter respect, isnt too bad. That would answer a few of your questions, if true. And I think Taefali were not bowmen or lancers but spear chuckers, from what some people say.
Bachrach is a good historian and well thought of. Very pleasant and helpful man. Unassuming and without crass opinions. I wish I were that good.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Conal - 04-01-2010
Quote: The old Brut used by Nennius even claimed the Britons descended from "Alanus, the first man in Europe."
Meaning pre Germanic invasions...i.e Celtic or is Alan(us) a common Indo European root?
Quote:Their "Alan" words are nothing like those Cachwin proposes.
So what are they?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 04-01-2010
Alanus wrote: The old Brut used by Nennius even claimed the Britons descended from "Alanus, the first man in Europe."
Meaning pre Germanic invasions...i.e Celtic or is Alan(us) a common Indo European root?
dashydog wrote:Their "Alan" words are nothing like those Cachwin proposes.
So what are they?
The one with the most potential was "rock". Obviously very significant, given the theological climate of the time.
There are, it seems, some loan words with Germanic origins, one of which means "precious/Darling". Cant see that nasty Alan Rufus letting anyone call him Roofie Darling as he slaughtered the Northern English!
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - aligern - 04-01-2010
Just a couple of points
1 Bachrach. It strikes me that he has much to offer, but is disliked by other historians. They make the point about playing fast and loose with the souces in pursuit of his point and they are right. Bachrach does offer interesting insights and really put together the Alan thesis which made a viable story of their influence in the West. Its just that his assemblage of evidence and then interpretation goes beyond what we can reasonably derive.
So his (Bachrachs) Alans are heavy cavalry and the ancestors of the mediaeval knight. This fits with Jordanes' description of the Alans at the Nedao (heavy armed) and with the description in a Saint's life of Goar's armoured cavalry.
If the Alans have a light cavalry component (which is not referred to in the Vth century) then we can reasonably expect it to have been a horse archer force because the Alans are steppe dwellers.
Some centuries later the Bretons appear as mounted javelin throwers. They impress a chronicler with their dashing evolutions. They are not using bows and they are not heavy armed lancers. The one supposed reference to breton horse armour is explained away by historians as being a reference to equipment rather than armour (arma as 'arms or kitted out). It certainly is not corroborated by any other evidence and does not well fit with light skirmishing javelin tactics.
These light javelin cavalry seem more likely to be either an original Breton invenntion or to be derived from British originals. Certainly there is no mention of Alan light cavalry in the Vth century and there is plenty of mention of Alan/Sarmatian heavy cavalry in Ammianus Marcellinus, Tacitus, Pausanias etc,
Bachrach does similar things with the Carolingian inheritance of Roman methods . He quotes Agathias on the fight at Rimini in a context in which he is linking to the survival and use opf Vegetius' manual. Its a long stretch from 550Ad to 750 AD. That's not to say that he is complettely wrong, just that there are other potential interpretations (such as that Franks etc always formed shieldwall against hostile cavalry).
So his ideas are fruitful, but like much archaeology, a possibility becomes a fact in order to build upon that fact and use it for the next stage of interpretation.
With both the Alans and the Taifali (anyone seen an original source quote on ther fighting style?? except to say that they are like Alans) it is quite possible that the mode of combat dies out leaving the laeti settlements with their new names as the pressures of farming (which they presumambly have to do) and surviving take over.
As to Alans in Britannia, there are sarmatian units in Britain in the Notitia, but we may be being overly hopeful to see them continuing on after the breakdown. This is simply because the collapsed economy does not provide enough resource to keep specialist warbands except for those around the kings (tyranni) of the small states that emerge. Most of these are tiny and keeping together a couple of hundred full time cavalry will have been a huge effort for them. What evidence we have is for cavalry that have throwing spears and shields rather than lances and armour.
Roy
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-01-2010
Quote:Alanus:35eirz7v Wrote:The old Brut used by Nennius even claimed the Britons descended from "Alanus, the first man in Europe."
Quote: "Meaning pre Germanic invasions...i.e Celtic or is Alan(us) a common Indo European root?"
Back to Conal and Dashydog,
It's probably a little late to define "Alanus,the first man in Europe." My thoughts are this: The Celts and Alans (and possibly the Taifali) may have been parallel cultures arising from an older one, aka the Indo-European "Homeland" somewhere between the northern coast of the Black Sea and Caspia. Thus "Alanus" may have been the progenitor, the first recorded man of the old tribe.
Interesting about the "rock." The Alans had a sacred location, White Mountain, now unknown. But this may have been the "rock," the place where they worshiped the progenitor. Or any artifical mound or "mundus" could take its place during migration. (This ritual was passed on to the Tyrfingi Goths) The proto-Celts could not haved been that far distant-- in the 7th century BC, they were living in Rumania and the Carpatians. The two cultures used chariots/spoked-wheels and chainmail; and both were oft led into battle by queens. This is not seen in other cultures, albeit the spoked wheel was certainly borrowed.
Nennius used two copies of the Brut, which he called "the ancient books of our ancestors" (Nennius, III, 17). He was accessing the very root of tribal memory. And coincidentally, this gives some credence to Geoffrey of Monmouth's statement about his own use of an "ancient book in the British tongue."
If my theory is correct, then the British Celts (and Armorican Brits) were not so distant culturally from the Alans, both having the probable same progenitor. Other cultural likenesses between these two tribes existed: they weaved similar tweeds, spoke similar languages, worshiped water fairies, venerated the stag, and produced women warriors. Hard to find other cultures, such as the Germans, Romans, Greeks, etc. that had the same affinities.
Personally I agree with Herwig Wolfram-- the Taifali were Sarmatians, probably an Alanic subtribe that attached itself to the Tryfingi at an early date, and thus gave that branch of the Goths the practice of sword worship. :wink:
I think the name "Alan" arrived in Scotland through the Fitzalans who came over with William the Bastard. Somebody brought it at a late date, and I got stuck with it. :lol:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - cagwinn - 04-01-2010
Quote:Hi guys,
I've heard Cagwinn's explanation of the origin of the name "Alan" before. Yet how odd it is that such a "popular" Celtic name does not show up in the pedigrees until about four generations after Saloman, who indeed may not have been Celtic since his own name could easily be taken from the old reference to "salta mon," ie "he who uses salt," oft a nobleman of Germanic or Alanic extraction.
Salomon is a Christian/Biblical name (a variant of Solomon). Biblical names were increasingly popular among Britons in the early middle ages. I fail to see how one can derive any meaningful information about Alanic settlements in Brittany from the position of the name Alan in a pedigree, especially if the ethnic name Alani and the personal name Alan are not etymologically related, as seems to be the case (the ethnic name Alani had a long -a- in its second syllable; if it was borrowed by Brittonic speakers, it would have produced an Old Breton/Welsh/Cornish *Alon, not Alan).
Quote:PS: And thanks to whomever mentioned that the reference to Britons cutting out Alanic women's tongues was inaccurate and unfounded, especially when we consider the number of intermarriages between the two reasonably close cultures. The old Brut used by Nennius even claimed the Britons descended from "Alanus, the first man in Europe."
This is a known corruption of Tacitus' legendary (and ultimately mythological) genealogy of the Germani (Tacitus mentions three tribes - Ingvaeones, Irminones, Istvaeones - who claimed descent from Mannus son of Tuisto; this ended up being adopted by early medieval pseudo-historians and corrupted into three brothers - Erminus, Inguo and Istio - who were descended from Alanus/Allanus/Alaneus/Analeus [plus other variant spellings of these names in the various pseudo-histories]). I believe (following Zeuss & Grimm) that the form Alanus (et al) is simply a misreading of Mannus and has nothing to do whatsoever with the Alani.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - cagwinn - 04-01-2010
Quote:Greetings all. Alanus, I know a few speakers of different type of Gallic and medi Breton etc. Their "Alan" words are nothing like those Cachwin proposes. And, extensive dredging through old histories of the Empire show no Alan place names. So, in Armorica, one assumes, they were "New" names and came with the visitors. Northern Italy is different. There are older Alan place names that are from the Roman period and they are provenly Alan.
I think you are generalizing a bit here - if you offer specific examples of alleged Alanic place names, then we can discuss their etymology. Some names in former Celtic-speaking areas may actually come from Celtic roots such as *Aloun-, *Alaun-, *Elan-, et al.
Quote:This business of insisting that Alan place names are not to do with Alans and to do with Mr Furry Fox etc etc Doesnt make sense to me.
You don't seem to be making much effort to understand. "Animal" place- and personal-names can be found all over the world - what's so strange about it?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-01-2010
Quote:Alanus:1k5nnuat Wrote:Hi guys,
I've heard Cagwinn's explanation of the origin of the name "Alan" before. Yet how odd it is that such a "popular" Celtic name does not show up in the pedigrees until about four generations after Saloman, who indeed may not have been Celtic since his own name could easily be taken from the old reference to "salta mon," ie "he who uses salt," oft a nobleman of Germanic or Alanic extraction.
Salomon is a Christian/Biblical name (a variant of Solomon). Biblical names were increasingly popular among Britons in the early middle ages. I fail to see how one can derive any meaningful information about Alanic settlements in Brittany from the position of the name Alan in a pedigree, especially if the ethnic name Alani and the personal name Alan are not etymologically related, as seems to be the case (the ethnic name Alani had a long -a- in its second syllable; if it was borrowed by Brittonic speakers, it would have produced an Old Breton/Welsh/Cornish *Alon, not Alan).
Quote:PS: And thanks to whomever mentioned that the reference to Britons cutting out Alanic women's tongues was inaccurate and unfounded, especially when we consider the number of intermarriages between the two reasonably close cultures. The old Brut used by Nennius even claimed the Britons descended from "Alanus, the first man in Europe."
This is a known corruption of Tacitus' legendary (and ultimately mythological) genealogy of the Germani (Tacitus mentions three tribes - Ingvaeones, Irminones, Istvaeones - who claimed descent from Mannus son of Tuisto; this ended up being adopted by early medieval pseudo-historians and corrupted into three brothers - Erminus, Inguo and Istio - who were descended from Alanus/Allanus/Alaneus/Analeus [plus other variant spellings of these names in the various pseudo-histories]). I believe (following Zeuss & Grimm) that the form Alanus (et al) is simply a misreading of Mannus and has nothing to do whatsoever with the Alani.
I really don't care how the name Alan-Alani was pronounced. Pronunciaton has nothing to do with origin. The Italians pronounce and spell Joseph as Guiseppi, but it's still Joseph. In your mind, everything-- entomolically speaking-- stems from the Celtic language. Obviously, you're an admirer of it; but unfortunately, a lot of other languages were used directly adjacent to Celtic speakers, sometimes only a few miles away in the case of Alanic (spoken in Orleans) and Gothic (spoken by Taifali of Nantes). And to say, or in fact insist, that there was no cultural borrowing between these groups is speaking with a closed mind.
The passages in Nennius do not refer to any of the "sons" of "Mannus" and it's highly doubtful any legendary Brut was directly influenced by Tacitus' Germania. Before accepting Zeuss & Grimm, please read Nennius (or Mark the Anchorite).
Perhaps "Saloman" was a varient of the Hebrew Solomon. Perhaps not! That is your opinion but it doesn't make "salt-a-mon" any wronger. 8)
On a happier note, I'd like to thank Aligern for the nice piece on Bachrach, above.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - cagwinn - 04-01-2010
Quote:I really don't care how the name Alan-Alani was pronounced. Pronunciaton has nothing to do with origin.
Well, you should - pronunciation most certainly affects how names evolve when they are borrowed into other languages.
Quote:In your mind, everything-- entomolically speaking-- stems from the Celtic language.
Oh really? I didn't realize you had direct access to my mind! Of course, this is complete nonsense, as any one who has discussed such matters with me could tell you (and anyway, didn't you just see my post about Salomon being a Biblical name??).
Quote: And to say, or in fact insist, that there was no cultural borrowing between these groups is speaking with a closed mind.
Well, it's a good thing, then, that I am not saying (or insisting on) anything of the sort!
Quote:The passages in Nennius do not refer to any of the "sons" of "Mannus" and it's highly doubtful any legendary Brut was directly influenced by Tacitus' Germania. Before accepting Zeuss & Grimm, please read Nennius (or Mark the Anchorite).
I suggest that you do a little more research on this. The genealogy presented in the Historia Brittonum was ultimately drawn from one of those Continental pseudo-histories that I mentioned above, in which Tacitus' Mannus had been corrupted as Alanus. This is not contestable.
Quote:Perhaps "Saloman" was a varient of the Hebrew Solomon. Perhaps not! That is your opinion but it doesn't make "salt-a-mon" any wronger. 8)
It's not my "opinion".