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Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-01-2010
Returning to Cagwinn,
Quote:This is a known corruption of Tacitus' legendary (and ultimately mythological) genealogy of the Germani (Tacitus mentions three tribes - Ingvaeones, Irminones, Istvaeones - who claimed descent from Mannus son of Tuisto; this ended up being adopted by early medieval pseudo-historians and corrupted into three brothers - Erminus, Inguo and Istio - who were descended from Alanus/Allanus/Alaneus/Analeus [plus other variant spellings of these names in the various pseudo-histories]). I believe (following Zeuss & Grimm) that the form Alanus (et al) is simply a misreading of Mannus and has nothing to do whatsoever with the Alani.
In reference to your last sentence above? Any male of the tribe Alani would have been an Alanus. Same with female, Alana, which so often has been "claimed" a dirivitive of Celtic "Elana." (Man, I'm getting tired of the world's foremost language being Celtic, while all other languages are tripe.)
Perhaps I should re-check Nennius?
"The first man that dwelt in Europe was Alanus, with his three sons, Hisicon, Amenon, and Neugio." (Nennius, III, 17)
I don't see where Erminus relates to Hisicon, or Amenon relates to Inguo, or Istio relates to Neugio, other than the fact that they are Indo-European names ending in "o."
As for pronunciation?-- nobody is correct. The Chinese government balks at Cantonese and requires the official use of Mandarin... but neither is "correct." It depends on the individual speaker.
I use the term "Nennius" because I'm a humanist. And perhaps someone else was the actual copiest or originator. Certainly, he borrowed from other sources. We see tidbits of Jordanes-- "from the second, Magog, the Scythi and Gothi..." I'm sure many ancient authors did it. But the Brut which Nennius quoted still puts "Alanus" as the first man in Europe, the progenitor; and we have to stretch things beyond normal speech-- in any pronunciation-- to claim that "Alanus" is a corruption. In no fashion can anyone difinitively claim that "Alanus/Allanus/Alaneus/Analeus" is derived directly from "Mannus."
I'm not "wrong." I simply have an opinion. And I have that right under the umbrella of free speech and free thought. 8)
PS-- Oh! And once in awhile I'm actually right.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Robert Vermaat - 04-01-2010
[Mod mode on]To all the members posting in this thread, may I remind each and everyone that while we cannot be sure what happened 1500 years ago, nor can we vouch how everyone was called or in what language, we CAN remain civil and let each other express their opinions.
[/Mod mode off]
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - cagwinn - 04-01-2010
Quote:In reference to your last sentence above? Any male of the tribe Alani would have been an Alanus. Same with female, Alana, which so often has been "claimed" a dirivitive of Celtic "Elana." (Man, I'm getting tired of the world's foremost language being Celtic, while all other languages are tripe.)
Who is claiming that Celtic is the foremost language in the world? Could you please stop with the strawmen arguments! By the way the Alani were not a single tribe.
Quote:"The first man that dwelt in Europe was Alanus, with his three sons, Hisicon, Amenon, and Neugio." (Nennius, III, 17)
I don't see where Erminus relates to Hisicon, or Amenon relates to Inguo, or Istio relates to Neugio, other than the fact that they are Indo-European names ending in "o."
Armenon comes from Tacitus' Irminones via a corruption of Erminus of the pseudo-historians; Hisicon comes from Istuaeones via Istio; Neugio comes from Inguaeones via Inguo.
Quote:As for pronunciation?-- nobody is correct. The Chinese government balks at Cantonese and requires the official use of Mandarin... but neither is "correct." It depends on the individual speaker.
More strawmen. You don't even know what you are arguing with me about, do you?
Quote:In no fashion can anyone difinitively claim that "Alanus/Allanus/Alaneus/Analeus" is derived directly from "Mannus."
Yet many people have definitely made this claim - and backed it up with facts. Do a simple Google search - you should easily be able to find a body of literature on this subject stretching back to the 19th century.
Quote:I'm not "wrong." I simply have an opinion. And I have that right under the umbrella of free speech and free thought. 8)
:roll:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 04-01-2010
Post by aligern ยป Thu 01 Apr 2010, 15:40
Just a couple of points
1 Bachrach. It strikes me that he has much to offer, but is disliked by other historians. They make the point about playing fast and loose with the souces in pursuit of h
Precisely so./ Thanks for that. Historians without mistakes dont exist and you know that. Polybius alone is a striking example but no less a man for all that. Without the Bachrachs of thsi world we d all be stuffed.
is
So his (Bachrachs) Alans are heavy cavalry and the ancestors of the mediaeval knight. This fits with Jordanes' description of the Alans at the Nedao (heavy armed) and with the description in a Saint's life of Goar's armoured cavalry.
Yes. I believe they were but the question is ...How Heavy???? In Eastern Europe they d been wasted by the Huns just as heavy cav were wasted by Kubilai Khan.
Too slow? Horse armopur ineffective?? You ve really hit the questions that interest me. I have a feeling they didnt armour their horses then. I ve got a photo that shows what, in my view, Alano Roman cav turned into..if you d like to see it.
If the Alans have a light cavalry component (which is not referred to in the Vth century) then we can reasonably expect it to have been a horse archer force because the Alans are steppe dwellers.
Sarmat cavalry carried bows, klancers or not, right up until Veinan and probably beyond. So, though you are right about it, it isnt definitve as sole armament.
Some centuries later the Bretons appear as mounted javelin throwers. They impress a chronicler with their dashing evolutions.
Curious isnt it? What went on.? I cant see javelins being much use to be honest. Horse archers would mince them, pikes too, if used. This is a vexed question
So his ideas are fruitful, but like much archaeology, a possibility becomes a fact in order to build upon that fact and use it for the next stage of interpretation.
With both the Alans and the Taifali (anyone seen an original source quote on ther fighting style?? except to say that they are like Alans) it is quite possible that the mode of combat dies out leaving the laeti settlements with their new names as the pressures of farming (which they presumambly have to do) and surviving take over.
As to Alans in Britannia, there are sarmatian units in Britain in the Notitia, but we may be being overly hopeful to see them continuing on after the breakdown. This is simply because the collapsed economy does not provide enough resource to keep specialist warbands except for those around the kings (tyranni) of the small states that emerge. Most of these are tiny and keeping together a couple of hundred full time cavalry will have been a huge effort for them. What evidence we have is for cavalry that have throwing spears and shields rather than lances and armour.
Now you are hitting the nitty gritty. The whole idea of Alan settlement in the West was a Roman policy of ensuring they did the soldiering and not the farming. These people were cattlemen on a grand scale but the further west they went the more trouble they caused, the more fences and farms they encountered and the more easily their coes and wagon trains could be discovered. Going west meant an end to their way of life. That said, Armorica had so much waste heath maybe that hundreds of coes werent noticed. The beef stock in the areas seems to have direct genetic link to Podolian Grey STeppe Cattle... (University of Hannover Vet School was good on this). AS for Sarmats at Ribchester, if they had cattle breeding to equate with the legends of their horse breeding there, they might have carried on longer than one thinks. Endless grazing there in those days!! and not much population to buy the meat. It hasnt changed much. Believe me, beef is all you can do there...even now.
THanks for a really good constructive contrib!! That is rewarding Messieur!
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 04-01-2010
Interesting about the "rock." The Alans had a sacred location, White Mountain, now unknown.
Yes. Various tales of shamaans sticking swords in the mound during storms in order to get lightning to strike and carbonise the steel etc etc... I seem to recall these are Russian tales but they are still Alannic etc. And it is Danubian clts who seemed to have developed the armopury business, with a rep for being utterly spineless in war which got tranlsated onto the Czech.s
If my theory is correct, then the British Celts (and Armorican Brits) were not so distant culturally from the Alans, both having the probable same progenitor. Other cultural likenesses between these two tribes existed: they weaved similar tweeds, spoke similar languages, worshiped water fairies, venerated the stag, and produced women warriors. Hard to find other cultures, such as the Germans, Romans, Greeks, etc. that had the same affinities.
Yes. And white stags too! Rusalky were definitely a shared thing. Intrestingly, the Finns have that..and developed their Lake Ore iron making. Curious threads these.
Personally I agree with Herwig Wolfram-- the Taifali were Sarmatians, probably an Alanic subtribe that attached itself to the Tryfingi at an early date, and thus gave that branch of the Goths the practice of sword worship. :wink:
I agree. And there is no question that when the Goths and Sarmatians were not at war with each other, they were best of pals and allies. Look at Jordanes Mum!.
I think the name "Alan" arrived in Scotland through the Fitzalans who came over with William the Bastard. Somebody brought it at a late date, and I got
stuck with it. :lol:
I stayed in Scotland 20 years and when the "Scottish Alan theory" was presented to me I was incredulous. Sceptical too. Now it is starting to seem a fact. If you look at the Roxburghe crowd or even the Blackadders, they ve all got big chunks of Fitz this, that and Alan mixed in. Somne of it from before Willem's time because many seem to have gone up as condottiori. Hase you seen all the stuff on haplotypes and matching DNA links with the Borders and POland???
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-02-2010
Back to you,
To your last question, some of it yes (I think).
I knew the Podolian cattle were genetically related to the Hungarian gray cattle... which are related to the Ukrainian gc. All the same roots there, I believe. My bowyer, Csaba Grozer, thinks they came in with the Magyars, but I believe they came from Alanic-Taifali root stock, long before the Magyars.
The thing that first got me going on the cultural similarities between the British Celts and the Sarmatians/Alans/Saka was finding an illustration of what I call "chariot man," a 2000 BC Sintashka-Petrovka horizon burial in the middle of the steppes. You can lay this picture down next to a British chariot burial and believe the guys were brothers! :lol:
As for haplogroups? Not much knowledge there. But I have noticed that the same haplogroup genes show up in the same areas where the Vandals-Alans settled, including Sardinia. They still make a good wine, a little lighter than standard Italian vintages and excellent with seafood. (a cultural no no)
I will continue to believe the Alans were a "tribe," in fact what we might call a "super-tribe" extending from the Massagetae, from the Saka, from the Yenisy culture Scythians, going back to the Androvono and Sintashka-Petovka cultures. In probability, many Alanic tribes or subtribes had different names, such as the Roxolani (which means "light alan," not "western alan," and is attested in the name of Rokhshon, the beautiful and talented wife of Alexander). That's my opinion, thanks very much.
I don't think we're stretching things a bit in making these comparisons. Not quite as radical as Littleton-Malcor and a bit Bachrachish. And I have my own (Scottishly accepted) idea of where my own name came from-- and it wasn't from some guy called "Mannus." :wink:
Oh! And my statement about Celtic being the "world's foremost language" was a joke coming from a "wry mouth"-- aka "campbell." Everyone knows the world's foremost language is Mandarin. (nuk nuk nuk).
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-02-2010
By the way, Dashydog
Thanks for the tip on the White Stag.
The stag shows up standing next to Cernnunos, god of Anderes (the otherworld), on the Gunderstop cauldron. The significance of the animal continued into the Christian era. Here, the stag is the "helper" in various histro-legendary Lives of the Saints (see that of Petroc, Teilo, and good old Saint David). Interestingly, a pair of yoked stags help King Tewdrig/Theodoric reach his heavenly reward (found in the Liber Landavensis). They are also paired on the cult wagon found in Steiermark, Austria. In the Celtic cemetary at Mont Granet (France), a stag was buried exactly like a human.
Likewise the stag aided the Alans in reaching "Dreamland" (the I-E homeland?). In Alanic kugans, such as the ones at Filippovka, the animal is found in the outer chamber, not upon the deceased person, along with things needed for him/her to ride back to the ancestors. In one case, in a satellite kurgan at Issuk Kul, the stag was attached to the person, evidently a young and high noble or (as Dr. Davis-Kimball would have it) a high warrior priestess. (This "young noble" was buried with sets of earrings).
I see a correlation here, a cultural connection that is missing in the civilized Gaeco-Roman and barbaric German societies.
But then again maybe the deer was retorically, and definatively (casting all Campbellic theories aside) named Alan, or maybe Elan(d)... an African deer-like animal that showed up in ancient Britain, one of which married the famous Maxim Wledig and had five children (in about the same number of years) who, in turn, were the progenitors of just about every famous British king in the pedigrees, maybe even Queen Elizabeth. :wink: In that case, we can Celtically assume that the Alanic culture was named after Mannus, or his son McMannus. :roll: Does that convert the Alans into Irish?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 04-02-2010
Morning Alanus. (Thus is it here).
The haplotype and gene thing is fascinating, or soon will be. Matter of time before the celtomaniacs hijack it as per hijacking every other damnned thing and wrecking it.
Anyway, in this subject underdiscussion look for Y Chrom R1a1. This seems to be the kiddy. HaploType G8 is another. Dont ask questions about it because I am finding it a struggle to take in. No doubt Doctorrr KD will also discover that everything in this world was invented by wimmin...Keltic ones at that.
I do concur with you that the Vandal Alan link is massive,. Much more than is suggested. And that is goes back earlier to that copmm,only discussed by historians ..prior to crossing of the Rhine etc. The Vandals, nowadays, are widely recognised as being Slawic. That reinforces the theory. Their also makes it pretty clear what they were. ..whatever other theories there may be.
Reverting to Haplotypes, the problem with the Scots in this matter is the very large migrations Scotland to POland in 1300s and 1600s..(if I recall the centuries right). These seem to have been Northern Scots and not Borderers. But shared Haplotypes between the Borders and Poland do exist at a siginificant lvel and I think it can be treated separately. AS you imply, it is all complicated by the Messageta question and Norway. Its interesting that Sweden has a high level of lactase deficiency in adults and Norway not. So, maybe the Norwegians were indeed Krygyz cattle herders at one time?? Their traditional boats are real Dnieper type too!Long before all this hiastory became known and fashionable, I sed to sincerely bgelieve that Vikings going down to the Black Sea werent explorers at all and merely opportunists "doing what Granddad did becaue thats where they came from anyway.."
I too believe Roxalan means Light Alan. Of course, the Sultans delicious girly wirly of legend was Roxalana or Roxanna. I forget the name of her vilalge where she was captured but its the heart of Alannic Ukraine. Of course, the Westernn Alans maybe have been fairer too!!
If you re looking for useful vocab, try Pashtu. Lots of words in it we can use. Quite a lot with Danish similarities. Incidently, the Danes had a very big Celtic "thing" in early times and thats not well explained either. Talking of Scotland//The Auld Territoire just got blatted with about 3 foot of snow. Easter Bunny is cussing and blinding.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Conal - 04-02-2010
Quote:I knew the Podolian cattle were genetically related to the Hungarian gray cattle... which are related to the Ukrainian gc. All the same roots there, I believe. My bowyer, Csaba Grozer, thinks they came in with the Magyars, but I believe they came from Alanic-Taifali root stock, long before the Magyars.
Can you expand on why you beieve that please?
Quote:Matter of time before the celtomaniacs hijack it as per hijacking every other damnned thing and wrecking it.
This attitude is a shame
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 04-02-2010
Conal. No insult intended in any way and nothing directed at yourself. Its been a pleasure yacking with you and, I am sure, will be in the future. I am not "anti Celtic" in any way, be sure of it. What I am against is the hi jacking of a good thread or forum by myopic groups with one agenda. There has already been adverse comment to the effect that "no more arfer" is wanted and \\I think that is right. To then have it replaced by "Arthur supported Cardiff City" just ruins things. We ve all seen what happened to other sites!!
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 04-02-2010
[color=#BF4000]Alanus wrote:I knew the Podolian cattle were genetically related to the Hungarian gray cattle... which are related to the Ukrainian gc. All the same roots there, I believe. My bowyer, Csaba Grozer, thinks they came in with the Magyars, but I believe they came from Alanic-Taifali root stock, long before the Magyars.
Can you expand on why you beieve that please?
Conal, I believe it too. Herodotus, for one (I seem to recall) mentions these gigantic herds of cattle. They are were domesticated Auroch type animals. The last Auroch was killed in POland in 1600 s but there may have been later ones. The name of these animals is Bos Primogenis. They found in all the old Sarmatian countries..Serbia, Hungary, POland, Northern Italy, Ukraine etc etc. Very big export trade in them from all those places for hundreds of years. In Armorica, I was informed, they somehow crossed to Jersey and Guernsey to form the breeds there. There was a land bridge still. That was prior to the great flood of the 10 seventies. I ve lost my contacts at Unis over this, sad to say, because I think the cattle and dog lineages are very full of potential. Horses not. As Alanus says, it wasnt the Magyars who spread these coes!! It happened earlier. The Huns had them too and drove them into Europe, spreading murrain everywhere they went....destroying the food and logistics of all their enemies. I assume the Alans caused similar.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Conal - 04-02-2010
Quote:Conal. No insult intended in any way and nothing directed at yourself. Its been a pleasure yacking with you and, I am sure, will be in the future. I am not "anti Celtic" in any way, be sure of it. What I am against is the hi jacking of a good thread or forum by myopic groups with one agenda. There has already been adverse comment to the effect that "no more arfer" is wanted and \\I think that is right. To then have it replaced by "Arthur supported Cardiff City" just ruins things. We ve all seen what happened to other sites!!
No offence has been taken as I am open to arguement on the Alanic lines but I feel that where you have an attested "Celtic/British" dominated area the place names, which may have a Celtic language derivative, should be considered as well as potential interloper origins. I don't see that as high-jacking but merely pointing out what to me should be an obvious observation that place names or personal names including Alan in them are just as likely, if not more so, to have a Celtic language root as to an Alanic one when encountered in a place which came to be known as Brittany.
That is why I asked about the placement of Alanic tribes in Gaul as this would be an indicator of impact. I had read more than once, that the Alans were settled "in" Armorica but it turns out that there is no evidence to that effect but possible evidence that even their presence as police from adjacent lands was rebelled agianst. This, to me, points to a resistance to Alanic influence leading me to question why would Alanic names permiate Armorican society.
My next port of call in researching this is to look at the impact on place names where they were known to have been settled as this will give an indicator of the likely impact they may have had outside these settled areas. If the area arous Orleans is not Alanisized then it is unlikley to have happended elsewhere. I do have a book on my wants list which may help but as usual I spend the mony elsewhere :?
On the point of javein armed light cavalry, this strikes me as very Roman and not at all steppes originative. If later Breton cavlary were thus armed isn't it unlikley that they were influences by Sarmation tactics?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 04-02-2010
Well, threse were chaotic times and we cant even be sure what Celts were in Bretagne then. Plenty late on, thanks to Saxon ethnic cleansing. Alan history, everywhere, seems to be one where they drift from job to job until things go tits up at which point they just moved on to the next adventure or settled down locally. People with good strings of horses and military skills would have been very welcome in some places. I think a lot of this happened in Poland...but much earlier on. What I said before about cattle is, I feel, a key. Once the ranching becomes impossible the Alani dont really function unless they conquer land or get subbed.So, they just settle down, local like, all warm and comfy. THats what people do! It doesnt make good history of course. It only takes a few pretty girlies and a hard winter!!
The spear chuckers? Lets say they were Breton cav...even if its descended partly from Alans. They didnt go out and buy the book on Alan cav fighting. If the traditions were well watered down and the equipment capacility much diminished, they would have had to make do and mend. It isnt very "steppe", YOure right. I just cant see it working and hate the whole idea of it. Yet, Norman Breton Cav was lancers and mail..impressively good by all acounts. So, traditions didnt all disappear.
Dont even mention the word books. The prices are hellish. One I wanted recently was USD125. Even UNi papers which used to be free are now charged out by "copyright farmers" who mostly seem to be USA firms.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Agraes - 04-02-2010
Several points can be precised.
Firstly, Armorica is NOT Brittany. It never encompassed the same definition before high middle ages unto our times. In Cesar's time, Armorica was the region of Gaul bordering the Channel up to the Belgae. It applied to a confederation of tribes. In late roman times, Armorica seems to have been the name of the provinces of 3rd and 4th Lugdunensis (spell?). That was roughly the area between Loire and Seine.
The Alans were settled in the Loire valley and so were in or just near Armorica. The rebellion could have took place anywhere in this vast part of Northern Gaul. The Britons were very active in this whole area aswell, they had settlements in the Loire valley too and what is nowadays Normandy. But the colonisation was way more important in the western part of Armorica, in the civitas of the Osismi and (more certainly in the 6th century) the civitates of the Veneti and Curiosolites.
Secondly if you absolutely need a foreign explanation on the development of light cavalry tactics in Brittany, look at the Maurs. The Maurs were famed for their light cavalry, using hit-and-run technics with javelins.
When Magnus Maximus fought the legitimate emperor Gratianus in 383 AD, the guard of Gratianus was made of Maurish cavalry. The Maurs deserted and joined Maximus british army. They became his elite guard, and a good deal of them were executed by Theodosius forces along with the usurpator in 388 AD.
A few decades after, we found the Mauri Osismiaci and Mauri Veneti protecting the Tractus armoricanus respectively in the civitates Osismi and Veneti. It's not clear if they were already there before Maximus usurpation, as there were already forts and walled towns from the late 3rd century onwards.
But to me it's possible that those units were redeployed after Maximus defeat to protect the Tractus armoricanus, and that they included Britons. Their shield emblem is celtic (even if it looks much like the Tao design of the Yin Yang to a modern eye). Possibly the romano-maurish cavalry tactics thus passed to the Britons, or Bretons...
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-02-2010
Quote:Alanus:3lzh54th Wrote:I knew the Podolian cattle were genetically related to the Hungarian gray cattle... which are related to the Ukrainian gc. All the same roots there, I believe. My bowyer, Csaba Grozer, thinks they came in with the Magyars, but I believe they came from Alanic-Taifali root stock, long before the Magyars.
Can you expand on why you beieve that please?
Hello, Conal
My initail interest in gray cattle stemmed from the bows made for me by Grozer. They were built with the original materials used by the Roman army and steppe cultures, and featured sturgeon bladder glue, sinew, and gray cattle horn. The last is still available in Hungary, but the gc is becoming scarce. These cattle, once gelded, were the "driving force" of the steppe migration into Europe-- the bullocks that pulled the Sarmatian's huge covered wagons. (see Ammianus Marcellinus)
At one time, they existed in western Europe itself, the "uri": "a little below the elephant in size, and of the appearance, color, and shape of a bull. These the Germans take with much pains in pits and kill them... and those who kill the greatest number of them, having produced the horns in public receive great praise." (Caesar, de Bello Gallico, VI, xxvii, 10) In Europe they remained untamed and were hunted to extinction.
Yet on the steppe, they were tamed for draft animals. There are a number of references, but I'll just use one-- Gray Ukranian Cattle and Their Closely Related Forms by A.V. Kushnir and V.I. Glazko, RAS, Novosibirsk, 2009: "This breed is a product of long-term evolution and folk selection. Originated from one of the forms of the auroch (Bos taurus primigenius), which died out in the 17th century, it has retained its unique genetic complex... developed under conditions of rough forage, hot-summer and cold-winter steppe environment... The Gray Ukranian breed is a branch of gray steppe cattle of the so-called Podolian breed...." (K & G, p. 288)
Thus the steppe gray cattle were introduced into Ukraine, the northern and western Black Sea littoral, Hungary, Italy, and France. The Jersey cow is genetically related as well. What is important is a genetic type that shows up in exactly the same places settled by the Sarmatians, Alans, Taifali, Magyars, and Avars-- steppe people, many of whom were incorporated into the Roman cavalry.
I hope this has been helpful.
Best,