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Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-02-2010
Greetings, Benjamin
Been awhile, but always welcomed to get input from a Breton.
Your mention of the Mauri is an interesting one. This tread has vascillated between cataphacts, heavy cavalry, and light cavalry; and should we be accepting any one style as difinative? I would think it depended on social rank and moola.
I have always believed that cataphractarii died out in Britain and "new Briton" at an early stage due to a general lack of weatlth, not so much because the ploy was outdated. We know that Aetius set Sangiban (successor of Goar/Eothar?) and his Alans in the center during the conflict against Attila. I remember how Edward Creasy (1850) claimed this was done because "the Alans could not be trusted." But the central punch was always done by cataphracts, another example being the Royal Savaran of the Sassanians.
Since we have British references to shields, lancea, and swords, plus compound bows, I would think the weapons might indicate the style of cavalry-- more than one type of unit, or a unit with varied weapons and protection.
The other matter-- whether there were any Alans/Taifals actually settled in Brittany-- seems too problematic. We'll never know. My gut feeling is they were not, only living on the borders west and south. We cannot know the reason for the 448 rebellion, but it may not have been against the Alans at all-- especially since the Alans themselves were sent into Armorica as a police force. You do not pitch ambivulent forces against each other to sustain peace. That fact alone indicates the Bretons and Alans were not hostile toward each other.
Actually the contrary. As mentioned in two posts above, I believe the cultural affinities between the Alans/Taifals and the British Celts were actually much closer than the Brits and Saxons/Angles. I mentioned the important role of the holy stag, women warriors, spoked wheels, autoratative queens. Their pagan roots and religions were closer than with the western Germans, odd as it seems. And this could indicate less hostility and opens the probability of Sarmatian-Celtic intermarriage. If we are to believe Bachrach and a number of other historians, this is exactly what happened.
Then we have social/cultural interchange, even adding the possibility of Mauri, in the general area of what is now Brittany. I don't think I'm going overboard here. The ancient influences, even my own name, do not have to be 100% Celtic, as has been suggested. :wink:
PS: Long ago, before I knew how to eat more exotic food, I had a meal of steak and tiny white potatoes in Brest (after touring the submarine pens). If I get back there, I'll eat seafood and drink wine!
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-02-2010
Everyone,
I apologize to Dashydog for not placing the gray steppe (Podolian) cattle in Serbia, Poland, etc. All those steppish countries! Including the vast Po Valley. And I missed an important cultural group who also employed them-- the Huns.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 04-02-2010
Pan Alanu,
Thou speakest most graceful Sire and fulsome thanks for it.
Now..au sujet des choses Brysonnais..... I have to tell you that my life work was with what they call Le Grand Flotte du Haut Mer ..Le chalutiers et tous les autres. Lorient, Le Guilvinec, Concarneau. Happy days. But, to the point. These people have been British from day one. Even from before the Younger Dryas and in a big way after it. This is fact.
But, no matter what people say, it is also a fact that proto Germanics wre in Uk in the days of Doggerland and in a bigger way after it's inundation. That didnt vitiate the Saxon thing and Roman presence in Eastern England was not only a matter of Germanic foedorati but one that had to recognise the Ingaphonic presence,. Were the Bretons Celts? Many a battle could be fought over that and which Celtic thread was in it. But that is not a matter for this forum. However, my surmise is that the Saxons in the East and the Britis in the West was an old divide. Oppenhheimer I thought was good on this, if not on all things. But, prior to Saxons in Kent, Britanny and Southern England, the west too, were one and the same.,
One last thing. About red wine. French food may be the most "broad" and I love it. But the finest cooks, I reckon, are Basque. Ispent many years there. They drink red wine withy fiosh..never white..no white for anything and never rose which is for errr umms.
Viz cavalry...I think your surmise was right. All to do with rank and resources.
As for Serbia, its not just the wee coos.(Spelled it in Scots for your benefit and not in Dutch). Serbia is an important country in our history but no one ever mentions it.
Race of heroes they are..and very good cavalaria!
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-02-2010
To Dashydog and everyone,
I was thinking of the late socalled "colonization" of western Armorica by families from what is now southern/swestern Wales and Cornwall. Some of these people, if we accept Tacitus, were much Spanish or Aquitani. Ausonius, the Burgidalian writer of de Mosa, also teacher of Gratian, had a nanny called Maura, aka "female Moor." So there were Mauri in Gaul at an early date and not even related to the Roman military. This sort of ties in with what Benjamin said. Others, if we believe the pedigrees (geneanet.org is a good one), were Irish like Conan Meriadoc. Looks like a mix of everyone hit early Brittany. Neighbors?-- Saxons entrenched upon isles in the Loire, the Taifali south around 396, then in 407 we have the first Alanic settlement just east.
As for Rokhshon-- the "fair one" or "light one"-- her father was a small-time chieftain of either the Bactrians or Sogdians. Interestingly, they may have stemmed from the Yu-schi who at one time spoke ancestral Kushan, a language very close to Celtic. They extened from the Afanasievo culture, also ancestors of the Saka/Massagetae/Alans; and a number of burials around the Takla Makan and Churchen give us light hair and tweeds that are identical to Celtic weaves. (also some really nice compound bows)
Rokhshon's father was named Oxartes. In the movie, she was portrayed by an Hispano-African (with big naked what-cha-mcall-its), about as far off kilter as movie casting could get. Of course, maybe Alexander liked great big what-cha-mcall-its. According to the Anabantis, this marriage took place somewhere just north of the Indu Kush. Some historians claim this wedding-interchange influenced the Alans, introducing them to the long lance which, in turn, helped create the cataphract.
Don't believe it. Two hundred years earlier, about 529 (give or take a month), Queen Tomyris feined retreat and lured the Medio/Persian army of Cyrus the Great into a canyon. This greal loss created by the Massagetae was mentioned by Herodotus and in more detail by Julius Frontinus (once governor of Britain). This classic about-face probably used cataphract lancer tactics, and the Persians were overrun. Cyrus literally lost his head. The tale is probably the earliest record of the steppe tactic used by the Scythians and Alans, and then again by Aetius/Sangiban near Orleans.
PS: about red wine. Yes, it's all I drink with a meal, never white or blush (reserved for people with great big what-cha-mcall-its). I drink Italian-- Valpolicella Superiore, Venetia Ripasso, Chianti Classico, Nero D'Avola, Montipulciano d' Abbruzo. Some of it now 10 years old! Keeps me alive.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-03-2010
Quote:No offence has been taken as I am open to arguement on the Alanic lines but I feel that where you have an attested "Celtic/British" dominated area the place names, which may have a Celtic language derivative, should be considered as well as potential interloper origins. I don't see that as high-jacking but merely pointing out what to me should be an obvious observation that place names or personal names including Alan in them are just as likely, if not more so, to have a Celtic language root as to an Alanic one when encountered in a place which came to be known as Brittany.
That is why I asked about the placement of Alanic tribes in Gaul as this would be an indicator of impact. I had read more than once, that the Alans were settled "in" Armorica but it turns out that there is no evidence to that effect but possible evidence that even their presence as police from adjacent lands was rebelled agianst. This, to me, points to a resistance to Alanic influence leading me to question why would Alanic names permiate Armorican society.
Hello, Conal
Like I said above-- been awhile!
I check in to RAT now and then, but I'm writing a novel and it takes most of my time. I agree: most Celtic names and customs arrive from an obvious Celtic tradition. But there were exceptions. My above post might help in explaining the apparent Breton-Alanic connection. That "alan" was surely Celtic is true, some redish animal either a fox or deer. Who knows how old it was, perhaps millenia. BUT the capitalized personal name "Alan" does not arrive until three generations after either Salomon or Aldien ap Salomon. Then there are "Alans" every other generation ad infinitum up to the advances of William the Bastard. To me, that shows the name was not derived from an animal called thus for centuries earlier (yet never used as a personal name), nor could it have suddenly showed up from the corrupted "Mannus" of whomever (one of the silliest prognostications I've ever heard); but rather "Alan" crept into Brittany sometime closely before the name arrives in the pedigrees-- after AD 400. This is one of the many indicators, to me, that there was social interchange between Alan and British families, and they never conducted hostilities toward each other until the Alans were ordered by the Praefect of Gaul to quell the Armorican rebaellion... which must have begun through entirely different reasons. Once again-- You do not pit enemies against each other to achieve peace. The cultural affinities of these two groups were very compatible, more so than other ethnicities.
To me, what is important is the fact that the early Armorican British and the Alans appear to have intermarried in exactly the same way the Goths and Taifals did. This cultural intermixing had to present certain advantages, such as new horse or cattle breeding stock, or just plain old-fashion new great-big what-you-mcall-its. :lol:
I forgot the second topic. But I'm an old man and tend to do that. Have a good one!
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 04-03-2010
Greetings Alanus and Conal
I ve heard of the Aquitanian Breton link before. Totally unsurprised by it because the coastal trade Galicia to Brittany seems to have been really very substantial, even in the Greek era. Everything from kasitterite to garum..succinite too. Punic connections in all that too!
When you talk about Celto Alannic links, dont forget that Capadoccia too had a very large Celtic province. This all formed part of Mihthridates Eupator's Pontic Empire and Sarmatians, I seem to recall, were important alies in his wars..at different, if not all, times. There has, one can be sure, always been a link, if only that between user and armourer!
Yes Alanus..age is a real t**t. Memory goes and red wine dont 'elp,
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-03-2010
Back to you all,
Quote:I ve heard of the Aquitanian Breton link before. Totally unsurprised by it because the coastal trade Galicia to Brittany seems to have been really very substantial, even in the Greek era. Everything from kasitterite to garum..succinite too. Punic connections in all that too!
Yes, going back to the early iron age. All of it was then connected to the isle. Barry Cunliffe did a small book years ago, British Cross-Channel Trade in the Iron Age. Quite helpful. It placed a lot of Roman amphorae in Briton before the Romans got there. Some containers held garum.
Quote: When you talk about Celto Alannic links, dont forget that Capadoccia too had a very large Celtic province... There has, one can be sure, always been a link, if only that between user and armourer!
These people, I think, were descendants of the same bunch of Celts who stripped the Temple of Mount Olympus, although "Greek Lit. 101" never would admit it. They became the Galatians ("thems whats from Gaul"), and here again we see no real problem with cultural affinities with semi-steppe Iranian peoples. Trade in this area included ironworking, both Celtic and Chalybean... the last being a hotly-contested source for the phrase Exchalybur ("from chalybis," high-grade steel).
hock:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - cagwinn - 04-03-2010
This whole notion that there was a close linguistic connection between Northeastern Iranian languages (Alanic, Sarmatian, et al) or Tocharian (the language that was likely spoken by the Indo-European people of Western China who produced those fantastic mummies) and Celtic is simply false (which, of course, does not stop people from spreading this falsity on the Internet ad nauseam). At best, the Tocharian languages show some shared IE archaisms with Celtic, mainly grammatical in nature (languages on the periphery of the geographic spread of a language family often do show shared archaisms that are not present in the center of the spread), but they do not share much in the way of vocabulary (according to latest research, Tocharian is much closer to and shares most of its core vocabulary with Greek, Armenian, Balto-Slavic and Germanic, which makes sense, as it is believed that the Tocharians' ultimate roots lie in Eastern Europe). A good summary of the current state of knowledge about the Tocharian language family is available here: http://www.oxuscom.com/eyawtkat.htm . Also, seek out the work of Douglas Adams, one of the world's foremost experts on Tocharian (if you have Jstor access, this is an excellent article of his: http://www.jstor.org/pss/601651 ).
If someone has evidence to the contrary (which I guarantee you would cause a major stir in the world of Indo-European studies!), I challenge them to produce it.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 04-03-2010
Alanus/..How are you cutting pasting the quotes of others into your replies?? My way is clumsy and ughly.
I can do smirkies and smileys.
Metalworkers etc are interesting. Herodotus is very keen on his metalworker Arimaspi. They are one eyed and I can imagine it. A blacksmith or smelter without goggles would be!!
Theres that Asp /Horse word again. Sulimirksi has it that Arimaspi were proto Sarmatians but I am not convinced. Tried for years to prove that Sarmaty had portable forges maybe,.
But..it seems the sateppe was once a giant smelting area in the copper age and reduced from deciduous forest to steppe because of that. Some carbon footprint that! Dont know if it is true but it happened in Spain for similar reasons under Roman rule I think .
Tocharians, Cadwynn are a back further back for me. Cant comment.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-04-2010
Hello, Cagwinn
Quote:This whole notion that there was a close linguistic connection between Northeastern Iranian languages (Alanic, Sarmatian, et al) or Tocharian (the language that was likely spoken by the Indo-European people of Western China who produced those fantastic mummies) and Celtic is simply false...
Thanks for that. However, I think we know that Northeastern Iranian-- used by the Saka, Massagetae, Alans-- was not closely related to Celtic. I am an old fart, not a linguist, and made the brash claim that Tocharian had affinities with Celtic... which it does in some ways. Aside from language, if the Urumchi mummies were Tocharian then they had some cultural similarities with the Celts, particularly their weaving, actually using the identical type of loom.
Quote: At best, the Tocharian languages show some shared IE archaisms with Celtic, mainly grammatical in nature (languages on the periphery of the geographic spread of a language family often do show shared archaisms that are not present in the center of the spread), but they do not share much in the way of vocabulary (according to latest research, Tocharian is much closer to and shares most of its core vocabulary with Greek, Armenian, Balto-Slavic and Germanic, which makes sense, as it is believed that the Tocharians' ultimate roots lie in Eastern Europe).
Also, we should remember that Celtic roots also lie in Eastern Europe.
Quote: A good summary of the current state of knowledge about the Tocharian language family is available here: http://www.oxuscom.com/eyawtkat.htm .
I can't sneak into Jestor. But I found http://www.oxuscom.com an interesting read, especially this:
"Based on the similarities between Tocharian and the Italic and Celtic branches... he (Lane) postulates 'rather a long period of close contact..."
Interestingly, while the Greeks, Thraco-Phrygians, Armenians, Balto-Slavs, and Germans are all mentioned repeatedly in the above article, nowhere do we find a geographical position of the pre-Halstadtt Celts, who evidently lived in a void far from the Germans and proto-Slavs, yet strangely somewhere between the steppes and Britain.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-04-2010
Quote:Alanus/..How are you cutting pasting the quotes of others into your replies?
leave the opening brackets with the poster's name, remove chaff with backspacing, then type-in end-quote brackets. Answer that section. Move on to add new poster's quote brackets, etc. Always start and end in the same formula the quote came to you with.
Quote:Sulimirksi has it that Arimaspi were proto Sarmatians but I am not convinced. Tried for years to prove that Sarmaty had portable forges maybe,.
Don't know about all Sarmats, but the Alans were forging Chalybean-type damascus steel swords prior to AD. Some studies through micro-spectography have been done on five different kurgan-found swords; they have random particles of steel ("cut steel," as the Lady of the Lake claimed). So it appears the Alans had highly efficient portable forges. Indeed, the swords became quite popular, finally known as the Black Sea Style. Fancy buggers. I suppose we ought to toss Britain into the ring, maybe ad the word cavalry, but swordmaking was not too popular on the Isle, not mentioned in history, not even in the Welsh tradition. Aventicum, east of the Jura, was a Celtic swordmaking oppidum.
Quote:But..it seems the steppe was once a giant smelting area in the copper age and reduced from deciduous forest to steppe because of that. Some carbon footprint that!
Evidently the iron age began earlier than once thought. King Tutankamen had an iron Hittite dagger in his tomb, now in the Cairo Mus. The Hittites worked in exactly the same mountains that the later Chalybes dug their ore. (The Chalybes still, exist. My eldest son went to school with Nate Chalybe, son of an Iranian refugee.) In China, the iron age came late, but it came from the steppes-- as did the spoked wheel and Chinese chariot.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - cagwinn - 04-04-2010
Quote:Hello, Cagwinn
I think we know that Northeastern Iranian-- used by the Saka, Massagetae, Alans-- was not closely related to Celtic.
Saka spoke a separate Southeastern Iranian dialect (see: [url:2xv1ggvk]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Iranian_Family_Tree_v2.0.png[/url]), but anyway, you just said a few messages back that the Alani and Bretons spoke a similar language:
Quote:If my theory is correct, then the British Celts (and Armorican Brits) were not so distant culturally from the Alans, both having the probable same progenitor. Other cultural likenesses between these two tribes existed: they weaved similar tweeds, spoke similar languages...
We seem to have a contradiction here.
Quote:I am an old fart, not a linguist, and made the brash claim that Tocharian had affinities with Celtic... which it does in some ways. Aside from language, if the Urumchi mummies were Tocharian then they had some cultural similarities with the Celts, particularly their weaving, actually using the identical type of loom.
I wear the same type of blue jeans that folks in Japan do - that doesn't mean we speak the same language or have deep cultural similarities. The affinities between Celtic and Tocharian are somewhat superficial - there is no way that a Gaulish speaker or a Proto-Tocharian speaker would have been able to understand one another if they had met and tried to strike up a conversation. Neither could an Alan and a Brittonic speaker in the 5th century (since Alanic and Brittonic were even further apart, linguistically speaking).
Quote:Also, we should remember that Celtic roots also lie in Eastern Europe.
Says who? Most linguists seem to believe that the Celtic languages arose in Central or Western Europe
Quote:I can't sneak into Jestor. But I found http://www.oxuscom.com an interesting read, especially this:
"Based on the similarities between Tocharian and the Italic and Celtic branches... he (Lane) postulates 'rather a long period of close contact..."
Here is the full quotation from the original (Lane, George S. "Tocharian: Indo-European and Non-Indo-European Relationships," in Indo-European and Indo-Europeans, ed. by George Cardona, Henry Hoenigswald and Alfred Senn. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1970) - the emphasis is mine:
"A possible interpretation of the evidence here presented as regards the relations of Tocharian and Italic and Celtic would be, I think, that, while in no way indicative of any original close dialectal unity between them, it does point to rather a long period of close contact after the separation of Tocharian from the nearest of kin, Thraco-Phrygian (and perhaps Armenian)."
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 04-04-2010
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Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry
Don't know about all Sarmats, but the Alans were forging Chalybean-type damascus steel swords prior to AD. Some studies through micro-spectography have been done on five different kurgan-found swords; they have random particles of steel ("cut steel," as the Lady of the Lake claimed). So it appears the Alans had highly efficient portable forges. Indeed, the swords became quite popular, finally known as the Black Sea Style. Fancy buggers. I suppose we ought to toss Britain into the ring, maybe ad the word c
Where is the evidence for that? Or is just well founded suppostion/ Are you sure they werent just buying wootz like everyone else? I d like to believe you!!!
Evidently the iron age began earlier than once thought. King Tutankamen had an iron Hittite dagger in his tomb, now in the Cairo Mus. The Hittites worked in exactly the same mountains that the later Chalybes dug their ore. (The Chalybes still, exist. My eldest son went to school with Nate Chalybe, son of an Iranian refugee.) In China, the iron age came late, but it came from the steppes-- as did the spoked wheel and Chinese chariot.
THats a rather upmarket surname to have!! But, yes. I agree entirely about the Hittite thing and regional orgins of the iron working game. And the iron age did of course start in different places at different times. It must have been a wondrous alchemy to people then and no surprise that arimaspians and other smith types were sacred/untouchable. In all this, it always permeates my mind that there is much important religion mixed in with all this. |The trouble is that discussion of this sort always attracts the bahmpots and fantasists..and..worst of all..etymologists etc who always go "yes, kalibes, as in tieh ES, brotther of Aes, son of the swor god SCAB..so you get Scabilebes..with dropped paramater guided consonants to have a glottal reversal making uggh into arrragh as in Swarrghd or Sword.etc etdc etc etc... Drive you ruddy mad!! (Apologies to etymolygos but you do all need treatment!)
Alan J. Campbell
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - ArthuroftheBritons - 04-05-2010
Ok warning, we have descended to Sarmatian and Linda Melcor land again! However I have found something which will blow your minds. The Hilton of Cadbol stone. On it is a decpiction of South Pictish horsemen from the fith century (according to some of you guys they are very similar to northern Britons) who are using Roman stlye lancer shields, with a lance resting on the shoulder of at least one of them. Romanised dragon iconography borders the stone. But what is really striking is that the supposedly barbaric Picts (and by extent North Britons) Are wearing what appears to be Late Roman Togas. I don't know. If these are Picts in the north. How Romanised would Southern Britons be? Also this is the only example of written Pictish. I don't know, why don't you look into it.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-05-2010
Thanks, Aotb
Your're right. We have gone off-topic-- AGAIN!
Cagwinn is correct: the Britons and Alans didn't have "close" languages (other than both being IE). However, they still remained closer, in many cultural aspects, than to the Romans, Saxons, etc-- queens, women-warriors, water deity worship, early mobility, aka horses, spoked wheels, chariots, but especially the deer thing in relation to the afterlife. [and how inextricably odd that all these cultural features point to an EASTERN European or Eurasian origin.]
(Interesting but off-topic: the deer is also heavily depicted in post-Buddhain northern India, and it has been suggested that the Buddha, who was called Sakamuni, "sage of the Sakas," may have come from a Saka steppe tribe. Not my suggestion, but curious.
hock: )I'll not argue about Celtic origins beyond this: pre-BC Celtic word scabbards with dragons/ lyre birds show up in Hungary and the Lower Danube; one of the oldest proto-Celtic religious cult items (a bronze cauldron-wagon with spoked wheels) is dated to 800 BC and comes from Rumania; I personally examined early pre-BC Celtic fibulae and helmets at the Archaeological Museum of Odessa, Ukraine... where the assist. curator informed me they were "found locally." Also a pre-BC Celtic population in the Crimea; and the iron-age fort at Bishpukin (error spell), Poland, certainly has Celtic overtones. The river Ljubljanica has revealed hundreds of Celtic water-votive items. Plus the Boi, a extremely old Celtic tribe, originated near the western Czek border. Eastern Europe? Western Europe? The Rumanian find is the oldest.
Interesting about the Pictish/Northern Briton's inscription. Neighboring cultures DID affect one another, which has been my premise all along. How Romanized were the southern Britons? Judging from the upper classes, rather so. Roman names. A lot of Briton-owned villas, especially in the West Country and the area between Caerwent and Llanwit Major.