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+--- Thread: Sub-Roman Britain (Cavalry etc) (/showthread.php?tid=6780)
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Robert Vermaat - 06-28-2010
Quote:Yet sometimes "evidence" comes to us beyond the written word, and I'm referring to the Welsh flag and its probable link to the Equites Taifali's dragon and pearl shield. Nowhere in ancient British literature can we find mention of a dragon. Likewise in Celtic art, we do not see a dragon until the seventh century, about the same time it shows up in early Norse art. The dragon and pearl originated in China, found on Sun Quan's sword, again on a sword now in the Met, and still used in Bhuddist gongs. It was never British or even Western European... until adopted, or carried forward, onto the Equites Taifali Iuniore's shield. This outside influence was strong enough to make a significant impression on British folk memory, probably enhanced by the Roman cavalry draco.Well, I'd like to comment on that. I'm not an expert on Welsh/Brythonic/Celtic languages so I could not say whether that's true. Simply because we do not HAVE ancient British literature (it all starts with the Romans, remember?) it's probably a safe thing to say but it proves absolutely nothing. Dragons from Medieval literature (such as the fighting white and red dragons at Dinas Emrys) were not originally called 'dragons'' but called by other names such as ‘worm’ or ‘serpent’, which have the same meaning. Roman mythology did know dragons, taking the word from the Greek ‘drakon’, which also meant ‘serpent’.
Furthermore, the dragon/draco needs no Sarmatian connection at all. It's a thing seen with steppe cavalry, sure, but also with Persian armies, and we have no idea where the influence originated. the Dacian/Sarmatian connection and it's dracos depicted on Trajan's Column is but a possibility, because Roman cavalry could have received this influence from other sources besides these.
And even IF the draco originated from Sarmatian influence, it's use then spread throughout the Roman army over centuries, and ended up as the very common battle standard of every 100-man cohort (or smaller unit) in the late Roman army. An original Sarmatian origin had long since faded and even IF that LR draco became to origin for the early medieval British dragon, this cannot be used for proving ties between Sarmatians and Britain.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Conal - 06-28-2010
Quote:In this same fashion, we can trace the Migration Era or "Black Sea Style" sword back to those of the Han Dynasty, as adopted by the Khotani Saka and Massagetae. The Han sword is carefully, and accurately, depicted on the Orlot Battle Plaque, incised in ivory as carried by Massagetae warriors. It's no coincidence that the Alani "were the Massagetae" (to quote Dio), that this style of sword was carried into Europe by the Alans, Goths, and Huns, where it became the forrunner of the cruxiform Crusader sword. This gold-hilted style was owned by Wale's King Morgan and the Frank's King Childeric.
I can't google an image .... do you have one handy please?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Astiryu1 - 06-28-2010
I am very interested in the Sword of Sun Quan as well( Zhao Yun is my favorite from the period)! The "Three Kingdoms" or "Warring States" is one of my favorite things to study!
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Robert Vermaat - 06-28-2010
Quote:The dragon and pearl originated in China, found on Sun Quan's sword, again on a sword now in the Met, and still used in Bhuddist gongs. It was never British or even Western European... until adopted, or carried forward, onto the Equites Taifali Iuniore's shield. This outside influence was strong enough to make a significant impression on British folk memory, probably enhanced by the Roman cavalry draco.The Notitia Dignitatum also has two clipei with a Yin Yang symbol - yet we do not consider that one to be froma strong Asiatic influence on the Roman military. Some symbols are alike, yet developed independently.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - John Conyard - 06-28-2010
I think all who have contributed to this thread should under go decimation. I'll take my chances.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Nathan Ross - 06-28-2010
Quote:I think all who have contributed to this thread should under go decimation. I'll take my chances.
Do I get a special dispensation, since I only joined in two days ago, or does that make me doubly culpable?
hock: 
Anyhow, I'll wrap up my contribution by agreeing with Robert about the plausible roots of dragon imagery (and noting that the Welsh flag derives from a medieval banner, on a pattern used by many English and Norman kings!). I agree, also, that there were a great many cultural influences on late Roman and post-Roman armies, and that the Alanic/Sarmatian could well have been one of them. As regards Britain in particular, however, actual Roman and (especially) Germanic military practice would, I think, have had a far more palpable influence by the 5th-6th century than any residual eastern traditions.
Regards - Nathan
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Astiryu1 - 06-28-2010
Sorry I wasn't meaning that the "Warring States" had anything to do with British culture! :oops: I was interested in it separately from this thread. Not because of it. I don't think there would be any link between China or Britain at this time.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Robert Vermaat - 06-28-2010
Quote:Do I get a special dispensation, since I only joined in two days ago, or does that make me doubly culpable?Coward! Stand fast and take your decimation like a man!
Btw John, who gets to decide?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - John Conyard - 06-28-2010
Man proposes, God disposes.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - ArthuroftheBritons - 06-28-2010
Good heavens! I wasn't even refering to Linda Melcor's ideas in that one post and now we're ready for civil war and the legate is threatening to decimate us all! Ah well, he can't get rid of me, I know how to mess up all your pension plans! (standard bearers were in charge of pension, pay, and promotions as well as being the head clerk of the legion.)
Ok, as a recap, this is what I managed to find as traits which most scholars agreed on as the Sub-Roman British cavalry having, note: these are just ideas that I'm putting past you from what I've read, no need to get agressive over it!
"Ok trait 1: The best cavalry in Sub-roman Britain belonged to the Votadini/Gododdin. Trait 2: The elites of this cavalry were descended from Sarmatian horsemen led by Romans alongside allied Votadini tribesmen who retired to Votadini Lands and who married British women. Trait 3: This is the one I think is most acurrate; they had an amalagation of equipment but at minimum had at least a spatha, a helmet, a shiled, and some kind of body armour. Some of them looked more Roman and had better armour and lances as well as swords. Others were more like the Celtic nobles I described earlier. They all agreed, however, that the best Sub-roman British horseman cobbled together the best equipment he could find. Trait 4: These men had a presence in the south due to their extreme effectiveness against dismounted troops.
Also, there was a strange anomoly in the early Welsh/ late British accounts of these horsemen; they almost all agree that they had red plume of either horsehair or feathers and a coptic tunic with borders and design of the same colour. Your own educated thoughts?"
Remember, just what all the scholars seem to agree on. So please, don't get angry I'm just trying to add more info to this discussion. Also, for all our sanity, please ignore the thouroughly smashed and burned second trait and look at the rest of them instead.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - John Conyard - 06-28-2010
God tells me this one can go . . . . . [attachment=1:2dr7yojg]<!-- ia1 on the edge.jpg<!-- ia1 [/attachment:2dr7yojg]
and this one is safe . . . . . [attachment=0:2dr7yojg]<!-- ia0 IMG_9792.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:2dr7yojg]
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Astiryu1 - 06-28-2010
Is that a quarrel quiver down there?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - ArthuroftheBritons - 06-28-2010
Well personally Mr.Conyard, I think that the guy on the top looks very Sub-roman. Just give him a bigger shield, a leather breastplate and maybe a few javelins and I think we'd be good.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Nathan Ross - 06-28-2010
Quote:and this one is safe . . . . .
I'll say! Fantastic photo.
Quote:a leather breastplate
Aaah, don't start! :lol:
(I wasn't here. You didn't see me) - Nathan
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 06-29-2010
John!
What a magnificent photo! Is that "something like" a Grozer bow I'm looking at?
Quote:I can't google an image .... do you have one handy please?
Conal,
Here's an image of the Orlot Battle Placque, which shows many elements that entered the Roman cavalry and Britain. It's a piece of scrimshaw on elephant ivory, and it has been variously dated between 300 BC to AD 400. If we study all of the elements and put them into historical context, the scene can easily be dated to around the 1st century BC or slightly earlier.
The armor is similar to that of the Warring States period, only metal plates (and scales) instead of the Chinese leather-plating.
The leather helmets are similar to an Alanic one found in the Kuban, and the upper left one has scales applied.
The sword scabbards are straight with a flat-bottomed chape. They are attached to the belt by scabbard slides similar to those used with the late Roman spatha. The sword hilts are two-handed, and the blades are abbreviated in length and too wide for the scabbards... "artistic license." In comparison with the warrior bodies, these weapons are actually quite long.
The bows are asymetrical, and the gorytos has two tubular quivers which are typically Alanic. Several of these bows and an identical case have been found in the Takla Makan, below the Junggar Pendi.
The draco is early, without a dragon head yet an effective wind-sock and rallying point. The dragon was the offical symbol of the King of Qin (prounounced "Chin") who became the first emperor following the Warring States period. Dragons were auspicious and protective, not evil, mythically arising from lakes and rivers in the springtime to bring the rains. As "protectors," dragons were often painted on shields.
And the contus appears almost to full length, perhaps 12 feet or 4 metres.
The only weapon that didn't make it into the Roman cavalry is the "Scythian" battle-axe in the upper righthand corner. (Click on it for the Cinamascope Version. Sorry: still B & W.)
[attachment=0:23usevbs]<!-- ia0 Orlot Battle.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:23usevbs]
I have two accurate reproduction Han Dynasty swords (from a museum piece owed by Emperor Wu-di, d. 59 AD), grips identical as pictured, one blade made from folded steel and the other sandwiched from iron outside with a steel center, but the scabbards are tapered toward the point. So what we are actually looking at here are late Warring States or early Han swords, or close copies made by steppe smiths. The grip checks shown are like the one found on the King of Yue's bronze sword, circa 200 BC. If anyone is familiar with pieces retrieved from the Saka kurgans in the Altai, the horses will look exactly like the one on the famous felt blanket picturing a warrior with a Mohawk haircut.
What we are viewing are the Saka-Massagetae, known to the Chinese as the "Wusun." They lived in what is now Xiniang Province plus westward to Sogdiana. The two handed swords are mentioned by Tacitus in a Roxolani vs Roman battle that occured on the lower Danube in the year 68 or 69. Perhaps there will always be those who will dismiss "outside" influences on cultures, such as the Britons, but it's hard to dismiss the number of "future Roman" cavalry elements pictured on this placque.
QUOTE of the DAY: "I don't think there can be any link between China and Britain at this time."
:lol: :lol: