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Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Agraes - 06-29-2010
Quote:Alanus:3nxgp0zf Wrote:The dragon and pearl originated in China, found on Sun Quan's sword, again on a sword now in the Met, and still used in Bhuddist gongs. It was never British or even Western European... until adopted, or carried forward, onto the Equites Taifali Iuniore's shield. This outside influence was strong enough to make a significant impression on British folk memory, probably enhanced by the Roman cavalry draco.The Notitia Dignitatum also has two clipei with a Yin Yang symbol - yet we do not consider that one to be froma strong Asiatic influence on the Roman military. Some symbols are alike, yet developed independently.
Those symbols appears to be of celtic origin. At least they occured in celtic art
We also do have dragons/worms in LaTène celtic art.
Here on sword chapes:
![[Image: ironagesword.jpg]](http://www.eleusinianm.co.uk/production_images/ironagesword.jpg)
We could also add the northern british dragon broochs, dated from the 1-3rd centuries AD.
Given the persistance of ultimate LaTene art in Britain and Ireland in the early medieval period, we could have 'dragons' either of celtic or roman origin. Or both...
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Conal - 06-30-2010
Quote:QUOTE of the DAY: "I don't think there can be any link between China and Britain at this time."
:lol: :lol:
Thanks Alan
It's very interesting to look at this in the round. It seems to me that weapon technology can travel very fast and very far.
As you say ..,did it travel as far as 400AD Braitain ... however ...top ...warrior third from right ... is that a shield on his shoulder with an image of a mother and child on it :roll:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Astiryu1 - 06-30-2010
Quote:QUOTE of the DAY: "I don't think there can be any link between China and Britain at this time."Wow! guess I need to retract that. I never thought the European and Chinese cultures came into contact before Marco Polo. I was taught the Chinese Naval expeditions ending before they rounded Africa were a good indication that they didn't know about us. Though they could have heard through the Grapevine. Even so I am getting off topic...
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Robert Vermaat - 06-30-2010
Quote:God tells me this one can go . . . . .If he indeed pops off, can I please have that shiny thingummy he's carrying on that blue stick please mr Conyard please? :twisted: :twisted:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Robert Vermaat - 06-30-2010
Quote:QUOTE of the DAY: "I don't think there can be any link between China and Britain at this time."Stricktly speaking, that's indeed a very correct statement. Mind you, I'm not saying that one object could not travel from Rome to China or vice versa, but it went through the hands of many intermediates. The same goes for weapons or other influences on one or the other culture. There is still no direct link between Britain and China during this period. :wink:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Astiryu1 - 06-30-2010
That's what I thought... :oops:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 07-02-2010
Hello Everyone,
I took a few days off (my birthday get-together with old fishing buddies).
Exactly as everyone is hinting at-- There was no direct link between China and Britain, but there was an indirect one via the steppe cultures and the Roman military.
The dragon scabbard chape (pictured above) shows up once in Britain, but it arrives in multiples (and at the same time) upon the Hungarian steppe and again along the lower Danube. The oldest recorded dragon symbol comes from the Warring States period or earlier, which in turn is older than the La Tene Celtic images. The Greek "drakon" could easily have been adopted into the Roman lexicon, but we must remember that even before written history the Greeks were in contact with the Cimmerians and then the early Scythians. Considering where most of the scabbard chapes have been found, even these point to a Scythian influence. The earliest dragon in western literature shows up in Beowulf, cira 700. My feeling is that one culture influenced a neighboring one, so on and so forth.
Long swords were also Celtic but the scabbard slide is early to mid Han dynasty, as is the thin sword-blade. The Orlot Battle Placque was found north of the Caspian (I think) but the scene depicts a battle which archaeologists believe occurred near Samarkand in Sogdiana. Oddly enough, the Han Emperor Wu-Di was the catalyt for employing the Saka (Wu-sun) as mercenaries, bringing Saka mounts from Ferghana into China as the "heavenly horses," and also creating the "silk road" which extended all the way to Damascus. Most of this was a backlash in fighting the "Xing-nu," who appear to be early Huns. But in many ways, the silk road (a modern term for Pliny's "camel caravans") was the "direct link" between China and Rome, albeit through intermediaries.
Obviously, the dragon arrived in Britain before the Iazyges or the Equites Taifali. But the Taifali "dragon and pearl" is clearly Asian in origin and still found today on Buddhist gongs just as it was seen on Sun Quan's sword in AD 220. I was simply pointing out that four elements that were incorporated into the Roman Cavalry showed up first on a scrimshawed belt stiffener that was created a long distance from Rome and Britain, and before Rome invaded Britain.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Astiryu1 - 07-02-2010
Ok now I get where you are coming from. Steppe/Desert Cultures are the middlemen. The only problem is the Babylonian reference in Gilgamesh to "Tiamat" a chief female deity in the form of the dragon. Now I am bad at chronology between China and the Western civilizations and don't have a clear understanding of when Gilgamesh is supposed to have taken place. Would the cultures of Babylon (or eastern provinces) have trade with the Chinese? This is getting interesting! Maybe dragon history should go to another thread? It's up to you guys. I think this could go on for awhile.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 07-02-2010
Well, yes we are off-topic just as soon as the dragon leaves Britain.
Gilgamesh is naturally older than Noah... and just as real. :lol:
Sometimes, things get fudged in translation. Originally this Sumerian deity was a serpent and pictorially depicted as one. Linguisticly from cunic, to Greek, to "modernity," the sepent became a dragon. The same thing occurs in poor translations of Egyptian; and so-called "historains" like Sir. Laurence Gardner have carried the improbable to gospel-truth. Cracked Quote of the day: "Caratacus was the first Pendragon of the island." SLG. :roll:
(ps: According to SLG, the Egyptian pendragon was annointed with "crocodile fat" (as opposed to bacon grease)-- becomeing the "messa," or as I would call it... the "slippery messa." I don't think the off-topical phrase "pendragon" has any historical background in ancient Britain at all; and all the references to it-- him-- he-- are medieval concoctions of romantic and deluded scribes.) :wink:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - ArthuroftheBritons - 07-02-2010
Back on target once again I have found something useful in what usually is a pile of junk. Deadliest Warrior. Yes, I know that's hard to believe but having wayched, and criticized, the Attila the Hun VS. Alexander the Great episode I realised two things. 1) I extremely underestimate the strength of a sword. 2) The Alanic longsword is likely the deadliest weapon a Sub-Roman British cavalryman would have been packing except maybe for a heavy thrusting spear. Allow me to explain.
As part of their analysis of Attila the Hun they had a Hun descendent, who had partial Hunnic training, ride around on horseback using traditional Hunnic weapons which would have extended to the late Romans; mainly a bow and a sword. Now considering I haven't really seen a Late Roman or Hunnic cavalryman in action, not even a reenactor, this was amazingly impressive. But what has jogged my memory is the fact that Attila was using an Alanic longsword. Now this guy was riding around on horseback swinging this replica blade around seemingly lightly, I don't actually know how stong the blows were, and was able to slice through several cow ribs with ease before being pulled away by the moving horse. Now that, I think, is highly impressive and a good indicator that this type of sword, used properly, could slice through leather armour, shields, maybe even a few helms or two. Your own opinions considering that I don't really know if that's typical and that I don't, nor should, trust this particular show.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 07-02-2010
Nicholas,
Gotta write quickly. All the swords that I know of that would fall into "possibly" arriving in sub-Roman Britain would be straight-bladed "Migration era" types, also called the Alanic, Hunnic, and Gothic blade. Considering the blade's historical provenance, it would be "Alanic" as you say. But Celtic blades were also long, just wider. The curved blade you see in Attila the movie appears introduced by the Avars, also known as the Juan-jaun (also Hethalites or White Huns). That blade appears to be similar to the Tang dao ("knife") which descended from the Han dao which replaced the Han jian (aka the forerunner of the Saka-Massagetae-Alanic long sword. That is, if we accept that the long Roman spatha was influenced by the eastern variety. I have one that the maker claims will cut through an entire side of ribs. Incidentally, it's about 40 inches long (100 cm) which was the Alanic sword's length.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - ArthuroftheBritons - 07-05-2010
Glad to see that we're back on track. So where are we now? Could someone please compile a list of all the things we agreed were present in the Sub-Roman British cavalry, each time I do someone usually starts fuming at me. Also, Ron Andrea, sorry to bother you but do you think you could PM me a copy of your novel?
PS: How's that steppe warrior camp going Alanus?
Later: Ok, I think you guys will find this interesting. I have been watching an episode of deadliest warrior pitting the Celt against a Persian Immortal and trust me, the Celtic longsword can do horrific damage. It smashed scale armour, didn't cut the leather mind you but did sever the bronze scales and give the guy a broken rib. On another note the same sword from horseback could sever a skull in half horizontally. I'll keep you guys posted, I'm not done watching.
Later still: The lancea results were just shown. It went directly through the pig and would have gone through at least one more, didn't even look hard.
hock:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Ron Andrea - 07-05-2010
I've been out of pocket for more than a month, so I've lost the bubble on where we were.
Here's what I think we agree on:
- No heavily armed and armored cavalry, such as Byzantine cataphract.
No large-scale Briton cavalry (due to economics more than lack of know how)
Equipage may have been Roman castoffs, but not for long. Little evidence of Briton industry to support.
No hard stirrups. (The Franks adopted them in the 8th century. Unlikely, the Britons had them before then.) Possibility (but no evidence for) of soft stirrups, loops of leather to aid mounting and add stability on long trips, but not for fighting.)
Probably relatively small horses (an economic as much as a breeding issue)
We don't agree, but love to write about:
- Eastern influences, especially the supposed "Sarmatian connection."
The existence, heritage, tactics and effectiveness of "he who must not be named." (His initials are Arthur Pendragon. :wink: ) And whether he (or his progenitor) may have had Roman connections. Arthur talk has been ruled "off topic" however.
Anglo-Saxon use of horses.
Comments? Additions?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - ArthuroftheBritons - 07-05-2010
Don't forget a weapons check, but other than that I think you got everything.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Ron Andrea - 07-05-2010
Actually, I missed enough of the recent weapons discussion to be unsure I've got it. And which side had which weapons can be significant indicator of contact, if not influence. Would you give us a summary?