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+--- Thread: Sub-Roman Britain (Cavalry etc) (/showthread.php?tid=6780)
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - marka - 06-22-2009
they would have used some cavalry for scouting or cattle raiding but they are unlikely to have been shock cavalry like cataphracts.Dark age kingdoms simply did n't have the resources.
Bows?i don't think so -britain has far too wet a climate.
cataphracts had mixed luck against germanic tribes as history shows.
The majority of warriors would be spearmen or conscripted farmers.
how big is our biggest native breed of horse?
Bear in mind during the dark ages there may have been britons and saxons on both sides of many battles.
The idea of country or nationality is a modern one.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Conal - 06-22-2009
Quote:they would have used some cavalry for scouting or cattle raiding
If you have some evidence that cattle raiding was done on horse back I would love to see it?
Quote:but they are unlikely to have been shock cavalry like cataphracts.Dark age kingdoms simply did n't have the resources.
Or the inclination.
Quote: Bows?i don't think so -britain has far too wet a climate.
Was the climate in 5th century Britain as wet as it is now? I hear stories of vineyards in the south :?
Quote: The majority of warriors would be spearmen or conscripted farmers.
What is your evidence that farmers were involved in any fighting?
Quote: how big is our biggest native breed of horse?
You mean what "was" our biggest breed of horse?
Quote: Bear in mind during the dark ages there may have been britons and saxons on both sides of many battles. The idea of country or nationality is a modern one.
Not sure what point you are making here?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - marka - 06-22-2009
main point the sub romans would have used cavalry but not in large numbers (in comparison to the rest of the army),the rest would be professional spearmen and mercenaries including some saxons.
Second point did we or do we have a native breed of horse capable of being used by very heavy cavalry ie 16 hands or above
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - marka - 06-22-2009
third point is that dark age people were loyal to a clan and a clan leader,other rival britons could be just as hostile as anyone else.These clans or tribes could also include other nationalities especially turncoats or exiles.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - marka - 06-22-2009
fourth vineyards exist in modern day france but i wouldn't send bow armed light cavalry there (is there any pollen evidence for vineyards in the south?)and of course britain had more woodland than now
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Conal - 06-22-2009
Quote:main point the sub romans would have used cavalry but not in large numbers (in comparison to the rest of the army),the rest would be professional spearmen and mercenaries including some saxons.
I accept this, broadly but you said we had to bear it in mind but didn't clarify why?
Quote: Second point did we or do we have a native breed of horse capable of being used by very heavy cavalry ie 16 hands or above
Where do you get the 16 hands and above for "very heavy" cavalry?
I understand the Roman horses ran to 13-14 hands and they would have to carry;
Man say 140-150lb for a 5ft 5inch average weight male.
His armour say 40-50lb for helmet shield & mail coat with Cataphract arm & leg defences.( a full medieval plate set weighed 45-65lb )
Horse armour say 88lb for a 13000 scale coat.
That's a total weight of 268lb ... that the equivalent a 19-20 stone man. A Welsh Cob pony at 14 hands has no trouble with this weight so it is possible .... however I am not contending that Cataphracts were used in Britain AD400-500.
Take away the Horse armour & allow a mail coat they you may have a weight of 170lb ..12 stone. A 12-13 hand pony should mange that.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Conal - 06-22-2009
Quote:fourth vineyards exist in modern day france but i wouldn't send bow armed light cavalry there (is there any pollen evidence for vineyards in the south?)and of course britain had more woodland than now
I'v done a bit of googling ... looks like the weather took a turn for the worst in the 5th century ... colder and wetter so will I have to recant :oops:
I know guy who is very much into composite bow-ery so will ask him how his bows fair.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - marka - 06-22-2009
the ancient composite type bow did not work at all well in a damp environment,there is a lot evidence for this and may be why longbows or self bows were used in western europe.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - marka - 06-22-2009
interesting.
the sassanid persian cataphracts had horses over 15 hands,i assume the sheer size also gave an advantage.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - marka - 06-22-2009
connal
don't forget to make a weight allowance for weapons.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Robert Vermaat - 06-22-2009
Guys, please keep your answers readable: best write it in one answer (not in four) without too much quoting. :wink:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 06-23-2009
Quote:
I know guy who is very much into composite bow-ery so will ask him how his bows fair.
The stiff ears (siyahs) of recurve bows have been found in Britain. The one that comes to mind was in Webster, and it looked a lot like the siyahs still made by Grozer. I'm a bow enthusiast myself, but we cannot compare modern steppe bows with the originals. Different materials, and they are perhaps more moisture resistant. The possibility exists that these bows were used in post-Roman Britain, but they would not have been common (I don't believe). Got a real one coming, made from sturgeon glue, sinew, and horn. I live in New England, a lot like Britain's weather; so I'll find out how an ancient-styled bow holds up to rain and fog.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - John Conyard - 06-23-2009
The bow would be covered in bark, lacquered etc. to keep out the damp. But the strings would be susceptable to damp. So horse hair/linen in the UK, sinew/gut on the steppe.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Conal - 06-23-2009
Quote:connal
don't forget to make a weight allowance for weapons.
1-2lb for a sword ....
contos anyone ??
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Conal - 06-23-2009
My contact came up with this reply;
<<Hi Conal,
You are right in doubting this common notion because it does not
appea to rely on fact. Rather it reminds of the general tone of the
many imperialistic victorian travel accounts where a foreign culture
encountered always had to be described as being inferior.
In reality the composite bow in one form or another holds all the
records:
1. Strongest bow known to exist: Manchu and Turkish military bows up
to 240 pounds
2. Largest war arrows used: Manchu
3. Distance record: Turkish flight bow at some 800 yards.
4. Distance record with rail / dart system: Korean at over 1000 yards.
But there is at least some truth in the idea that they perform well in
dry climates, but there is a little bit more to it than just that.
Composite bows are all made with isinglass, fish bladder glue which is
the same stuff that holds precious instruments like 18th cent. violins
together. And they don't fall apart in the UK either but their owners
must be very careful of excessive moist and the way they store and
transport them.
Such was the case with composites: the glue gets softer then it gets
warmer and wetter. A composite bow is up to 15% weaker in a hot and
damp climate than it is in a cold and dry climate. But here comes a
surprise: so does the longbow lose up to 15% in hot and moist
surroundings. But unlike composites, the longbow can't come apart just
like that. A composite bow will come apart when you put it in a tub of
water for a while, but this would take a week or two with a well-cured
bow so a bit of rain is not even likely to affect it too much.
Jaap Koppedrayer, perhaps todays best horn bowyer, uses a bath to
"open up" antique bows for restoration, repair and research so he
knows how long it takes first hand. The weakness of the glue has an
advantage as wel, when done right the bow can be re-assembled as if
nothing had happened and worn parts can be replaced.
The Chinese came up with of a number of coats that helped against
humidity as well. In Chengdu has hot summers and cold winters and a
humidity up to 95% in the hot season. I lived in this area for a
period of time and while the winters were dry and cold, the summers
were so hot and humid that your clothes wouldn't dry when hung
outside. Bowyers there would coat their bows with Tung oil. Other
cultures, and earlier Chinese as well, used coats of (urushi) lacquer
to preserve the moist levels in their bows. Birch bark wrappings, with
heir natural membranes, were applied to these bows to keep the moist
levels in their limbs constant, mainly with Korean and Manchu bows.
And apart form this, in humid regions the bows would be left to dry at
night in special drying boxes with candles in them to drive out any
excessive moist it may have caught during the day. These were by all
means very sophisticated devices and the ways of maintaining their
power in all circumstances have been developed and perfected over the
course of at least 3000 years.
The Manchu bow for example served on the cold dry Siberian plains, the
lush forests of Manchuria, the desert-like climate around the Qing
imperial city of Beijing, the wet rainforests of Yunnan, Taiwan,
Guangdong and Zhejiang, the hot and dry Gobi desert and the cold and
dry Himalayan plateau. Not once were the Manchus stopped because of
alledges equipment failure. They knew how to care for their bows and
they were unstoppable in climates much more extreme and diverse than
that of Europe.
Tell that to the next guy who says these bows wouldn't last in Europe!
Jaap Koppedrayer has one in the making for me, a fully traditional
Manchu replica. Once I got it I will be able to prove that there is no
problem in using these bows in our climate.
To conclude, I don't want to deny that a composite bow may not fail in
a wet climate. But probably only so when it is improperly treated. If
a bow would have been made solely for the Beijing dry climate, and was
exported to England without being properly treated for the journey,
nor periodically dried once there, there would be a good chance of
failure eventually. Maybe this accounts for the many persistent
stories of these bows not being able to function in such climates.
-Peter>>
We tend to forget the ancients weren't mugs when it came to making & maintaining stuff. I remember seeing a TV prog about Amazon tribes where a camera man dropped some film in water and the local tribes man asking him why is so upset .. he can just make some more. He was surprised to hear that the camera guy could not ... it did not occur to him that you could not make and maintain everything you need :?