My Impression

[Mithras]

I agree. In the ancient world, with garments being more valuable and laundries non-existant - I doubt the British legionary looked pristine at all times. I've been over all types of British countryside in all kinds of weather and suffered for it.

Rust - what a killer. Lay your spear on damp grass, and pick it up 4 hours later, and it has spots of orange on it. Leave it outside your tent overnight, and it is orange with rust by the time you wake up. Add to that helmets, shield bosses, spears, ringmail and segementata and you have alot of rust to remove in the morning unless you can keep it dry. And in Britain, that is very difficult.

I agree that it is imperative for a soldier to stay clean, I try to keep all my stuff clean, but I have time and various grades of sandpaper and oils and hot water to wash my clothes - and a clean place to do it!

[Julius Verax]

Your spot on Mithras mate .


Julius .

[SOCL]

Mithras, with all due respect, I don't think that picture proves anything. Edge's assertion still stands. The point of a professional army is that it is professional: disciplined, groomed, and with a standard of bearing. The very fact inspections were held points to much more than counting noses and giving orders. The example you have shown, of what appears to be a Vietnam War-era Soldier in the mud is an extreme case, and by this I mean combat. No one can be expected to have their uniform pristine and in perfect order in the midst of fighting, which may be part of the reason the U.S. Army switched to the more-easily maintained ACU that doesn't require dry-cleaning, pressing, and the like. Just because soldiers participate in combat does not mean they are always grungy, bloody, muddy, and look bad. So Romans didn't have what we might refer to as a Class-A and a combat uniform, an example I see brought up in various threads, but so what? If they had one (what we call) "uniform", then it would get nasty in combat and be cleaned and maintained afterward. I have serious, serious doubts legionaries would be permitted to just wander about muddy, bloody, and however else they happened to look.

And as for the photo of the fellow in the Vietnamese jungles, I'm rather certain he wasn't particularly pleased, on a personal level, to look the way he does. Discipline and everything else the military teaches you aside, wouldn't one, just on a personal basis, be inclined to clean yourself, your uniform, and your gear?

[Mithras]

I agree with everything you've said.

None of those soldiers in the field, in combat, would pass any kind of inspection, or walk into town looking that way... they are indeed extreme examples.

Cohors Quinta Gallorum in the UK have treated clothes the ancient way, washing in cold streams, smacking tunics on rocks to really get off the grime. It took a lot of punishment to get stains and dirt off of tunics that had been used to dig ditches and carry out manual labour. They could never get tunics really clean, and they soon went off-colour, and fraying was endemic.

Its against the background of those experiments that I'm making my assertions (no, more like speculations!).

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Did they not have access to plants wit hdetergent like qualities?
I'm sure even the stoneage societies had discovered these?
(not that I have gone out, found, and tried them myself, of course) :roll:
But I wonder if anyone has in their experiments? Mithras?

[brennivs - tony drake]

I do believe I have the formula for German soap :?: Ill see if I can dig it out
Regards Brennivs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Cool!

[brennivs - tony drake]

There is a plant called Soap wort saponaria officinalis which when rubbed will lather up and you can wash your hands with it
Regards Brennivs

[Peroni]

I do believe I have the formula for German soap Ill see if I can dig it out

Plinius the Elder also records use of sapo, a Gallic invention used by Germanic men to colour their hair.

Naturalis Historia 28.51
Potest et sapo, Galliarum hoc inventum rutilandis capillis. Fit ex sebo et cinere, optimus fagino et caprino, duobus modis, spissus ac liquidus, uterque apud Germanos maiore in usu viris quam feminis


"Sapo ('soap') is also useful, an invention of the Gauls to dye hair red. It is made from tallow and ash, the best from goat fat and beechwood ash, in two manners, one solid and one liquid, both of which are in greater use among the Germanics by men than women".

[sulla felix]

I bet that smelt wonderful hock:

[brennivs - tony drake]

RATSSSS Peroni beat me too it Although in 300AD 1lb of soap cost 2 days wages of a skilled man and Sodium Carbonate cost twice as much.
Regards Brennivs

[Peroni]

Sorry Tony I had the text to hand!

in 300AD 1lb of soap cost 2 days wages of a skilled man and Sodium Carbonate cost twice as much.

Now that is interesting! you can understand the popular use of olive oil in the bath houses can't you?!

[Robert]

Tallow has very little smell (even if it is rendered fat from a goat) and the leachate from ashes is a very strong base. It is the base which does the cleaning, the tallow is the moderator. Tallow soap has been around for a very long time and survived well into the last century. Different fats have been used in later times, such as palm oil and olive oil (Palmolive soap!). The use of olive oil in bathhouses has nothing to do with soap, as it was used to soak up the grime from the enlarged pores (heat) and then scraped off. Soap would be the best bet to stay clean, skin or clothing alike. :lol: