06-02-2003, 07:39 PM
<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
Im strating a new thread since this is not really about Greek Hoplites anymore...<br>
<br>
*Wow, I'd like to hear the story about the burgonet, and also the armor from the Silver City region. I have heard a lot of stories of 'conquistador' armor found in the southwest, but have remained pretty sceptical. I have a lot of late 15th century gear, and if I return to the Southwest will probably try to do a real authentic 'conquistador' group... *<br>
<br>
Here is a pic of the Helmet. My family aquired it a generation ago from an Alvarado family in Mexico who claim decent. Its seems to date from the late 1500's, but... You tell me...<br>
<br>
<br>
<img src="http://c:PHOTOGRAPHS/MCV001F" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
Note: image will not post. Somebody tell me how to do this...<br>
<br>
The armor is described to me by someone who would not know an armor from a Ford as having sholder and limb defences, the pauldorns having a raised "spiral" on the front-- hence "Pisan". The breast plate was missing and a quilted cotton defence substituted. the helmet was a Burgonet. There were leg defences. This seem more creditable because of its description. Every single local Hoyo has to tell you about the Spanish gold on the mountain that just happens to be right behind them. When armor is described it is always the "Breastplate and Morion" mantra. What I do know from the Spanish records is that the morion is a generic Spanish term meaning helmet, and seems to mean Burgonet in most usages, refering to a face plate "moriones con sus sobrevistas". The term "cotas con escarzelas" is variously interpretaed as a chain mail shirt with leg defences. I see no reason whhy it could not mean a munitions plate armor. The piture of the Conquistador I believe is one that mirrors armor usage in Europe except limb plate defences are not discarded, being arrow proof. I think full and 3/4 armor was common. The steriotypical "morion and Brestplate" image is bunk. The armor was supposedly found in the Black Range near the Arizona border, and is now in Silver City. The Black Range is due west of the center of the Jornada Del Muerto (Journy of Death), which is still much avoided to this day.<br>
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If you come back to Nevo Mexico, Yea , lets do start a Conquistador group. It would be kinda fun. The local Hispano League would support it at first, untill they found they could not wear fiberglass breast plates and morions, which they do now. The pueblos would fling a fit, but they always do... the Onate statue in Albuquerque had its hands cut off "as payback for Acoma" (1605). (For explanation to our viewers-- There are five ehnic groups here, Pueblo, Navajo/Apache, Spanish, Mexican, and Anglo. The first four have fought with each other for over 400 to 900 years. Ironicaly, the Anglos are the only group who consistently get along with everyone.) When the dust settles, a group of full armored horsemen with heavy infantry comlpeat with trumpets, fife, and drums (evidence the Coronado expedition), would make a sight.<br>
<br>
I just left the Valencia County Sheriff's Dept. Last time an officer got injured in the line of duty, the Ambulance costs were deducted from his pay. My patrol area was Belen and Los Lunas, the Ladrons, and the north end of the Jornada. Things are starting to get rough here again. The AK-47s taken lately from the Narcotrafficanas have Cuban serial numbers on them. As you know, once you get away from the populated cities, the wild west is still alive and well. If you remember an archaelogical group on the Rio Puerco that some locals tried to hold hostage for ransom in 1975? Refered to as the "Shoot out at No-Good-Times Hacienda? That was my crew. Thats why we all own guns here, folks. You are on your own.<br>
<br>
Dan, if you move back, the IX Hispania is active here, so you can join the New Mexico chapter.<br>
<br>
Gaius Aquilius<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gaiusdeciusaquilius@romanarmytalk>Gaius Decius Aquilius</A> at: 6/2/03 9:45:47 pm<br></i>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
Im strating a new thread since this is not really about Greek Hoplites anymore...<br>
<br>
*Wow, I'd like to hear the story about the burgonet, and also the armor from the Silver City region. I have heard a lot of stories of 'conquistador' armor found in the southwest, but have remained pretty sceptical. I have a lot of late 15th century gear, and if I return to the Southwest will probably try to do a real authentic 'conquistador' group... *<br>
<br>
Here is a pic of the Helmet. My family aquired it a generation ago from an Alvarado family in Mexico who claim decent. Its seems to date from the late 1500's, but... You tell me...<br>
<br>
<br>
<img src="http://c:PHOTOGRAPHS/MCV001F" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
Note: image will not post. Somebody tell me how to do this...<br>
<br>
The armor is described to me by someone who would not know an armor from a Ford as having sholder and limb defences, the pauldorns having a raised "spiral" on the front-- hence "Pisan". The breast plate was missing and a quilted cotton defence substituted. the helmet was a Burgonet. There were leg defences. This seem more creditable because of its description. Every single local Hoyo has to tell you about the Spanish gold on the mountain that just happens to be right behind them. When armor is described it is always the "Breastplate and Morion" mantra. What I do know from the Spanish records is that the morion is a generic Spanish term meaning helmet, and seems to mean Burgonet in most usages, refering to a face plate "moriones con sus sobrevistas". The term "cotas con escarzelas" is variously interpretaed as a chain mail shirt with leg defences. I see no reason whhy it could not mean a munitions plate armor. The piture of the Conquistador I believe is one that mirrors armor usage in Europe except limb plate defences are not discarded, being arrow proof. I think full and 3/4 armor was common. The steriotypical "morion and Brestplate" image is bunk. The armor was supposedly found in the Black Range near the Arizona border, and is now in Silver City. The Black Range is due west of the center of the Jornada Del Muerto (Journy of Death), which is still much avoided to this day.<br>
<br>
If you come back to Nevo Mexico, Yea , lets do start a Conquistador group. It would be kinda fun. The local Hispano League would support it at first, untill they found they could not wear fiberglass breast plates and morions, which they do now. The pueblos would fling a fit, but they always do... the Onate statue in Albuquerque had its hands cut off "as payback for Acoma" (1605). (For explanation to our viewers-- There are five ehnic groups here, Pueblo, Navajo/Apache, Spanish, Mexican, and Anglo. The first four have fought with each other for over 400 to 900 years. Ironicaly, the Anglos are the only group who consistently get along with everyone.) When the dust settles, a group of full armored horsemen with heavy infantry comlpeat with trumpets, fife, and drums (evidence the Coronado expedition), would make a sight.<br>
<br>
I just left the Valencia County Sheriff's Dept. Last time an officer got injured in the line of duty, the Ambulance costs were deducted from his pay. My patrol area was Belen and Los Lunas, the Ladrons, and the north end of the Jornada. Things are starting to get rough here again. The AK-47s taken lately from the Narcotrafficanas have Cuban serial numbers on them. As you know, once you get away from the populated cities, the wild west is still alive and well. If you remember an archaelogical group on the Rio Puerco that some locals tried to hold hostage for ransom in 1975? Refered to as the "Shoot out at No-Good-Times Hacienda? That was my crew. Thats why we all own guns here, folks. You are on your own.<br>
<br>
Dan, if you move back, the IX Hispania is active here, so you can join the New Mexico chapter.<br>
<br>
Gaius Aquilius<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gaiusdeciusaquilius@romanarmytalk>Gaius Decius Aquilius</A> at: 6/2/03 9:45:47 pm<br></i>
