Jumping right in: tunica clavii............

[Graham Sumner]

Here are some boards I made mainly from Ospreys to get a first idea about what is existing.
http://pic.aceboard.net/img/12392/5951/1187338909.jpg

http://pic.aceboard.net/img/12392/5951/1187339239.jpg

http://pic.aceboard.net/img/12392/5951/1187339350.jpg

Well for the cost of a few loaves of bread you might as well buy the book these have all been taken from! Which for some reason I seem to recognize. 'Roman Military Clothing 3', by Raffaele D'Amato.

Sorry but I have not read it for some time but I believe it also had bits on boots, cloaks and cloak and tunic colours as well as the decorations for both.

'Roman Military Clothing 2' from what I remember might also be useful for what you need.

Graham.

[Agraes]

IVth century is probably easier to re-enact, but Vth is very interesting and intriguing :wink:

As for the panonnian, Vegetius mentionned they were in hide. And in the Piazza Armerina mosaic we do see one pretty well which tend to confirm this.



Interesting calcei Hugh and Robert :wink:
I personnaly plan to get a pair soon to replace my 'celtic' brogues. Not much evidence for Vth century models though!

[Robert Vermaat]

Well for the cost of a few loaves of bread you might as well buy the book these have all been taken from! Which for some reason I seem to recognize. 'Roman Military Clothing 3', by Raffaele D'Amato.
Sorry but I have not read it for some time but I believe it also had bits on boots, cloaks and cloak and tunic colours as well as the decorations for both.
'Roman Military Clothing 2' from what I remember might also be useful for what you need.

:twisted: Naughty man. But indeed, good advice, I can only recommend that every Late Roman re-enactor buy these books - they're like a bible on clothing!

[Bran ap Maclou]

My apologizes Graham !

So, I erase them !
These were boards I made for my private use when I began in order to see what I can do on a tunica as a "vade mecum". (And I bought the 3 books a few months ago)
Ospreys are quite helpful for beginners if your troop can't offer you a kit guide. This was my case.
But too many people reenact what we call the "Mc Bride style" (simply because his pictures are too good and deeply impress beginners who want to be "like the guy on the Osprey or the Concord book").
So later I went rather to see what can be found in Thousands of fragments in MAK's database, Joconde database and the belgian royal art museum. They are Egyptian coptic fragments so a bit far from Britannia, but I prepare a small article on exciting analogies wich can be found with other roman stylistic elements found in Britannia. So I think these patterns are universal in roman world.

About trading offer, I found in Egypt a weaver who still use the same technics and thread's matters to weave modern coptic tapestries, but I never ordered them for personnal ethical point of view because their best tapestries are made by little girls (thin fingers for fine work ! ).

However, we study some other possibilities. A technological center for special cloths (fitted for "haute-couture") has automatic and numeric "Jacquard" weaving machines. So, I'm waiting for prices and minimal lenghts (very expensive anyways). Then, we could group elements for several tunicas on a same piece of cloth and cut them before sewing them on tunicas.

Another solution is a local crafter. A quite secret guy, few kilometers from home, still weaves "by hands" some luxuous cloths by traditional (primitive I would say) methods mainly for museums. So I want to ask him if he could do tunicas, but I guess It will cost between 600 to 1000€ for a well decorated coptic tunica, but this would be IMO the closest technical way to archaeological pieces.

Another trail, north african markets : In southern france, a lot of cloth markets are held by north african people who sell a lot of egyptian (often indian made) linen cloths. Some of these cloths are typically coptic styled but mainly seventh century style. Some more early pattern suitable for coptic tabulae or "clavi" can sometimes be found on ... curtain's linen cloth. So, watch carefully cloths in arabic, egyptian, lebanese or north african shops, if you're lucky, you could find some very rare and suitable elements.

Since I began to look for crafters, a belgian cloth reenactor could begin a kit on demand, but we did not discussed the price yet, nevertheless It will be expensive, very expensive cos' even the wool thread is handmade and historically-like dyed. (but if you want to treat directly with her look for Yrwanel on reenacting fora)

Last trail, advertising embroiders use automatic machines to embroid with nylon threads. So, it's quite simple, you bring them pixellized pictures of logos and an unsewn tunica and they embroid them on whatever you want. So, I'm discussing with one of them to make our tunicas, It would last an afternoon and cost about 80€ (at least IMO for an unic piece). So, if They can fit their machines to use Wool, silk or linen threads (or at least cotton) instead of synthetic threads, it could be easy enough to allow each of us to choose a personnal style in archaeology (and stay acceptable for reenacting) which would be something else than simple coloured cloth strips on shoulders.

So, for next season, we decided (for our year 500 project) to embroid our tunicas, not the best technically speaking but available in DIY. Discussing what the collapse of the western empire could change in our style and supply availability, we, last independant roman citizens in the West, decided that it could be acceptable for us.

Regards

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well there is not too much wrong with looking like one of
McBrides paintings :wink:
He fuzz's the details enough to leave room for adaptation!

[Bran ap Maclou]

Well there is not too much wrong with looking like one of
McBrides paintings :wink:
He fuzz's the details enough to leave room for adaptation!

Yes, that's the problem, as far as I can see, Mac Bride was wise and careful enough to stay quite symbolic or to hide details if they are fiercely discussed between specialists or simply unknown. He stayed in his role of reallistic illustrator and I can't say, honestly, anything bad about his work. This guy was very talented to hide difficulties on pictures but still keeping a dynamic, reallistic and attractive effect of the whole scene .

But when you are reenactor, you're a 3D "artist", you have to be acceptable (and better 8) .

So we know thousands of late roman elements for tunicas thanks to the egyptian desert, there are now available photographs on the web, so it is a pity to see always the same red stripped white tunicas or the "big pixelled" piazza armerina style. That's not bad, simply, that's the tree which hide the forest. There are so much coptic fragments, you can find such a diversity in them, so that's a pity to stick to the necessarilly careful "Mac Bride style" after a time in the hobby.

Regards

Greg

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yes Greg, on the late tunic point, I would agree 100%

I only recently became aware of the egyptian fragments thanks to this forum, (as well as 99.9% of the rest of my knowledge of all things Roman) and would certainly want to try to copy one of the many amazing designs i saw!! (if I ever venture into late......)

[Mithras]

About trading offer, I found in Egypt a weaver who still use the same technics and thread's matters to weave modern coptic tapestries, but I never ordered them for personnal ethical point of view because their best tapestries are made by little girls (thin fingers for fine work !

Don't get too ethical, I've been to one of those weaving workshops in Egypt and the boys who were there were very proud of their work and wanted me to sit down and watch them at work.

Poor families need the income, I remember hearing about laws (in India?) restricting or stopping child labour that hit poor families badly. I don't know about ethics ...

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

good point Paul! I would be more worried about it if they were shipped over to a developed country to do the work.......

[Hugh Fuller]

Robert, I am at work on lunch break so I cannot check out your comments on the Wren's Nest tunics, but I will observe that the Depeeka boots sell for $150 in this country while the versions of the same that you recommend sell for 200+ pounds sterling in the UK. By the time you add shipping and pay the exchange rate, you are talking well over $400 for the boots and I have to say that I do not see that they are worth some three or more times what the Depeeka boots cost. You must remember that the dollar has been sinking like a stone against more stable currencies in the past 6-7 years and that makes imports ever so much more expensive for us on this side of the pond.

[Peroni]

Depeeka boots sell for $150 in this country

Only £55 for ours :wink:
http://www.armamentaria.com/store/index ... cccd50a40d

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Greg,

About trading offer, I found in Egypt a weaver who still use the same technics and thread's matters to weave modern coptic tapestries, but I never ordered them for personnal ethical point of view because their best tapestries are made by little girls (thin fingers for fine work ! ).

As other have said on this thread, good of you to think of them but indeed, they also depend on such work for their income. You can do both - accept the trade and support an organisation that invests in schooling or something of that kind. We can't change the world at once, but we can do small things.

However, we study some other possibilities. A technological center for special cloths (fitted for "haute-couture") has automatic and numeric "Jacquard" weaving machines. So, I'm waiting for prices and minimal lenghts (very expensive anyways). Then, we could group elements for several tunicas on a same piece of cloth and cut them before sewing them on tunicas.

I would be very interested to hear more about that option.

Another solution is a local crafter. A quite secret guy, few kilometers from home, still weaves "by hands" some luxuous cloths by traditional (primitive I would say) methods mainly for museums. So I want to ask him if he could do tunicas, but I guess It will cost between 600 to 1000€ for a well decorated coptic tunica, but this would be IMO the closest technical way to archaeological pieces.

Another option would be to ask him to make the patterned bit and do the tunic yourself. This is of course not the most perfect option but it would bring the cost down immensely. I think a price of €6-700 for a woven tunic is acceptable (since I would like to have one, but no more than one).

Since I began to look for crafters, a belgian cloth reenactor could begin a kit on demand, but we did not discussed the price yet, nevertheless It will be expensive, very expensive cos' even the wool thread is handmade and historically-like dyed. (but if you want to treat directly with her look for Yrwanel on reenacting fora)

Last trail, advertising embroiders use automatic machines to embroid with nylon threads. So, it's quite simple, you bring them pixellized pictures of logos and an unsewn tunica and they embroid them on whatever you want. So, I'm discussing with one of them to make our tunicas.

So far I had no luck there. Those that offer such a service ask a fortune for the first pattern. So a afordable price would need a dozen or two orders, which would make everyone look the same. Besides, machine embroidery is not very authentic..

You have more options.

One is painting your tunics, which is what Comitatus do to great effect:
http://www.comitatus.net/Sewerby06/sew5.JPG

Another is making the decorations out of several techniques: monochrome as a base, then small stripes (either machine- or cardwoven) across to make a square or star pattern or something. This is Chariovalda’s old tunic:
http://www.fectio.org.uk/shows/vechten2004augustus7.jpg

A third is copying real decorations onto fabric. Of course that’s not authentic, but I think it’s a good middle ground between painting, machine embroidering and classic fabric stamping. The results can be seen here on Aitor Iriarte:
http://personales.ya.com/ad932102038/ge ... gp3006.jpg

[Robert Vermaat]

Depeeka boots sell for $150 in this country

Only £55 for ours :wink:
http://www.armamentaria.com/store/index ... cccd50a40d

And may I say that they look a lot better, too!

[Bran ap Maclou]

You have more options.

One is painting your tunics, which is what Comitatus do to great effect:
http://www.comitatus.net/Sewerby06/sew5.JPG

Yes, I was told about this technics, It looks great, however, I have no proof that it has been used on tunicas. Though I know that Coptic egyptian knew Batik (with wax and Indigo) and selective ways of dying for Stolae or Curtains. So I unconsciously forgot it but I'm looking more often towards silk painting products for a next tunica. In France the people who use these technics are often barbarian auxiliaries reenactors... but I don't know if they have accurate informations about this ?
But if you have sources, I'm interested ...

Another is making the decorations out of several techniques: monochrome as a base, then small stripes (either machine- or cardwoven) across to make a square or star pattern or something. This is Chariovalda’s old tunic:
http://www.fectio.org.uk/shows/vechten2004augustus7.jpg

Yes probably a very suitable solution for us, we're 24 years after Rome's falling and very "provincial". So, this kind of "patchwork" sounds believable.

A third is copying real decorations onto fabric. Of course that’s not authentic, but I think it’s a good middle ground between painting, machine embroidering and classic fabric stamping. The results can be seen here on Aitor Iriarte:
http://personales.ya.com/ad932102038/ge ... gp3006.jpg

You mean "steam iron transferringleaves" that you prepare with a printer ?
About stamping I'm waiting an article, but it seems there were stamped cloths in Egypt, but no tunicas, only stolae and curtains for what I found.

Yeah! We have a lot of technics available, let's try them. For me this year, it's embroiding. I copied Orbiculi on historical pieces and I'm making clavi from an historical piece very damaged so it allow me to be a little creative in the spirit of the time....

For the sleeves, I still don't know if I try card-weaving or if I reproduct this one or another ? :lol:


Arf ! unfortunately, it's a bit too early for me.

Edit : Dated from 4-5th c. but if you know where this piece is located or where it has been published, I'm interested to know it.

Regards

[Graham Sumner]

My apologizes Graham !

So, I erase them !
These were boards I made for my private use when I began in order to see what I can do on a tunica as a "vade mecum". (And I bought the 3 books a few months ago)

No problems Greg, glad the books were of some use to you. In fact I have already done something similar to your boards for my latest book, which should be due out next year. I hope you will find that even more useful. There will be at least one painting in there too which will be of special interest to Robert, as we discussed it many years ago.

Graham.