Colour, dyeing, pigments etc.

[Tarbicus]

Is he dead?

Bummer.

D. M.

[Caballo]

Or maybe this shade of red as on the baldric?

[John Conyard]

All these examples are from the Mediterranean area, especially North Africa.

So far there does seem to be no finds of dyed leather in the UK.

What about the use of alum during the Roman period?

[Tarbicus]

All these examples are from the Mediterranean area, especially North Africa.

So far there does seem to be no finds of dyed leather in the UK.

What about the use of alum during the Roman period?

According to J. W. Waterer, the three methods of converting skin into leather were: Vegetable tanning, chamoising (oil tanning), and tawing (mineral tanning) by immersing in alum and salt. Most surviving leather is black or more rarely dull brown due to chemical action after such a long burial or immersion.

The word for alumed leather was 'aluta' and he says one of its uses was for sails.

[Martin Moser]

I don't like definitive statements at the best of times. But the idea of dyed leather being post conquest does seem to have some substance to it.
Unless of course somebody knows differently.........

The Southfleet shoes (now in the BM AFAIK) are reported by van Driel to have been "colored" purple when found, I couldn't find anything about whether this means dyed or painted, however. Here's a picture of them (long page, about 1/3rd down).
As has been noted above already alumn tanning is mentioned in contemporary sources, I don't know of any British find being analysed as such however.

[Marcus Julius]

Well, Pliny the Elder refers to madder being used to dye leather, and Apuleius writes of a red Moroccan saddle. Silius Italicus refers to red Libyan leather. I wonder whether the modern North African leather coloured a deep red brown is the same?

My own trials have shown me that dyes seem to end up either pink or else becomes that dark "Oxblood" red. So, I went to a local leather shop seeking advice. I was informed that the only way to get a good vibrant red is with paints. In all his years, he told me, he has only achieved a good red by dying once using a bleached white elk hide. He added that he has since tried it again twice and has decided that he just got lucky.

[John Conyard]

The information on alum is very interesting. In the north York Moors there are good deposits of alum, not too far from Praesidium!

From York we have painted "Viking" leatherwork, but nothing dyed.

[Martin Moser]

My own trials have shown me that dyes seem to end up either pink or else becomes that dark "Oxblood" red.

Here are some results I achieved with madder on alumn tanned deer leather:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=13858 (scroll down a bit to the bigger pouch)

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 7&start=40

[John Conyard]

The results appear brown rather than red. But I believe madder would have to be an import to Britain.

And any such dying would alter the chemical composition of the leather and be detectable. And in the UK it doesn't seem to occur.

[Tarbicus]

How can you possibly tell in most cases if it's dyed or not? Until every piece of leather is properly analysed, generally the leather will just look black or occasionally dark brown.

[Martin Moser]

The results appear brown rather than red.

Obviously a monitor thing. Depending on amount of madder used I get colors from orange to a somewhat dark red.

[John Conyard]

Please don't imagine I know what I'm talking about. But I understand fresh vegetable tanned leather has a pH of around 5, a water content of 13%, and a fat content of 18-23%. Finds have a pH similar to the level of the deposit itself, no fats or tannins, and a much increased water content. This makes it a good blank canvas to analyse and draw conclusions from. Some years ago Ester Cameron (leather specialist) drew the conclusion that there have been no finds of dyed leather in the UK dated before the Conquest. I keep her view in mind when recreating my low status equipment.

Of course I'm always interested in proof either way.

[Marcus Julius]

Martin, you say "on" the leather. Might I ask your method of application?

Also, they look orange to me. At the time I was working with that leather crafter, I was trying to achieve a "fire engine" or "sports car" vibrant shade of red. I have since just come to accept that red leather is dark red.

[M. Demetrius]

Red hair isn't red, either. Most likely, red leather was more like bronish red or maroon. The trouble is, dyes are transparent, and leather is brown to start with, usually. Probably when the ancients wrote of red leather, it wasn't scarlet.

[John Conyard]

Surely the brighter the red the more expensive the cloth/leather etc. Duller reds been cheaper. For a red belt you would have to pay a commensurate amount.