Battlecry

[L C Cinna]

Xenophon doesn't give any lyrics he just mentiones the soldiers singing it several times, at Cunaxa and in some of the later minor engagements. <p></p><i></i>

[Muzzaguchi]

Hi All,<br>
<br>
Isn't there a factor of rhythmic regularity in both the Greek verse of the Paen and marching songs/battle cries and also a factor of taking your mind off the impending business. One to keep you in time and the other to distract possibly nervous new recruits or to surround even veterans in a coccoon of theri culture. I am always reminded of Zulu where the British response to the Zulus is to sing 'Men of Harlech'. Also Alfred the Great with David Hemmigs were the Vikings march to the sound of clashing shield and spear. Bagpipes and even the War-face of today can be seen as such a coccoon/distraction device. Not to mention their possible effect on the enemy.<br>
<br>
Appian's admiration for a battle joined in silence might imply that going about a battle with no distractions was quite unusual and that normally there was the rhythmic clashing of shields or spears and or singing. Ammianius records (although he is not consistent) that clashing arms against shields was a sign of disapproval but clashing spears together was a sign of approval (I think this is in the address of Constantius to the troops) and earlier in the acclamation of Julian.<br>
<br>
Just a couple of quick ideas.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Muzzaguchi <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Antonius-<br>
<br>
You mentioned "Christus Victor" as a Christian Battle Cry, are you sure it's not "Deus Vult" (God Wills It)?<br>
<br>
...Or am I thinking of a supposed battle cry used by the Crusaders? <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

I'd like to think the Romans charged into the enemy yelling "Boogie Boogie Boogie!!!"<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Christus Victor was just my imagination... Based on the previous polytheistic battlecries such as Venus Victrix.<br>
As for Deus Vult, it looks like old french to me (Dieu le veult/ It is God's will). I'd put it in the medieval period along with "Montjoie Saint Denis" for the French and "St George and England" for the opposite team during the 100 years war. But I may be wrong..<br>
And they didn't know how to do the boogie then. Nobody's perfect.. <p></p><i></i>

[Gaius Longius]

<br>
Hi All,<br>
<br>
I'd like to draw your attention to a local story based only half a mile from my home in the borderlands of the Welsh Marches.<br>
<br>
In A.D 429 so the story goes an outnumbered army of Britons, led allegedly by a Bishop from Aurrex in France, defeated a combined force of Saxons and Picts.<br>
<br>
According to the story the Bishop exhorted his soldiers to put their faith in Christ and to raise their voices to heaven with cries of "Allelujah, Allelujah". The sound of this coupled with the clashing of sword on shield rim gave the Saxons the impression the Britons were greater in number and having lost heart were defeated.<br>
<br>
Although late Wales is believed to be one of the last areas to loose the influence of the Rome and its possible it indicates a war cry legacy.<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Carlton Bach]

Deus vult actually is quite respectable middle Latin. It is variably renmdered 'Dieu le veult', 'Dieu veult' and 'Deus Veult' by modern authors and I don't know if there is any real source for any such versions. Allegedly the battlecry of the First Crusade (though given the hodgepodge nature and general standard of discipline of that force I'd suspect something more along the lines of "Aaaaaaaargh!") <p></p><i></i>

[Felix]

"Deus Nobiscum" is also mentioned in the later (Byzantine) military texts. I will have to check, but it is noted in Maurice's Strategikon, or by Nikephoras Phocas, or both. As I recall, the advice was to avoid excess noise (such as battle cries) as it might disorder the troops. <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

If I recall well, Maurice advices only the word 'nobiscum'. Of course, it is intended for 'Deus nobiscum' but it is only one word and easier to control. Moreover, you it's a long word and you can modulate it from lower to higher sound while charging.<br>
We've started to use it for our cuneus<br>
On the other side, saying only 'nobiscum', every soldier ccould imagine Christus, Mithras, Iovis or whoever he liked going in front...<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Gaius, that Gallic bishop who helped the Welsh in the famous "allelujah battle" wasn't from Aurrex but from Auxerre. His name was Germanus, known in France as Saint Germain l'Auxerrois. <p></p><i></i>

[Gaius Longius]

<br>
Thanks Antoninus, next time I'll get the books out and not try to work from memory.<br>
<br>
Still if a Romano-British army still clinging to the ideas of the old empire find a battle cry acceptable there might be something to it.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
Gaius. <p></p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Gaius,<br>
<br>
I must advise not to make too much of this detail, such as regarding it as proof of the tactics of a British army.<br>
<br>
The piece in question is a biography (Constantius of Lyon - de Vita sancta Germani), written down c. 480 AD, most likely 40 years after the death of Germanus. Though Constantius was not actually present, he may have spoken with someone who was. But nevertheless, the visit of Germanus to Britain is so devoid of miracles (when compared to all the things he was said to have done on the continent), that his biographer may have wanted to add one.<br>
In the text (click [url=http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artsou/constant.htm" target="top]here[/url] for my article, and [url=http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artsou/constex.htm" target="top]here[/url] for the relevant exerpts) it is clear (chapter 1 that it was Germanus who supplied the battle-cry.<br>
So, if anything can be deduced from it, it would be that 'alleluia' as a battle cry was used in Gaul during the early 5th century. <p>Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert<br>
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/" target="top]fectienses seniores[/url]</p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Didn't they use the famous "Allez les Bleus" in Gaul?<br>
Never mind... <p></p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

Going back for a moment to paeans, what I believe is the complete text to the paean of Athanaeos has survived as an inscription from (I think) Delphi. I think the tune survived too. The book to check would be 'Greek Music' (I think that is the title) by Andrew Barker , who can probably be contacted through the department of Archaeology and Antiquities at the University of Birmingham.<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>

[Tib. Gabinius]

To grap this theme once more up, here are some more informations.

We really dont know exactly what the imperial army used for they "war cry". It really looks close, that the tesserarii give a theme close to the day, campaign or imperator.

But, additionally to the other here called sources, Ammianus reported about the fight of Strassbourg, that the roman army used a barditus while they crushed into the enemies, a low starting voice useing tone which go straight to a kind of cry.
Its also mentioned at another battle 20 years later.

But as here also mentioned, it seems more to come from the german "bardi", which means shield, than from the roman word barritus, cause this ment the cry of elephants, just like barrus means elephant itself.

Comparing to this "Die Spätantike" of Demandt and "Das spätantike Bewegungsheer" of Hoffmann.

At least, the personal link between imperial armies and their legati or imperatores wouldnt fit to a call like "Roma victrix" or "Roma aeterna".

And by the way, its reported, i think it was Caesar but not sure, that the romans proceed in deep silence, while all the other armies make a lot of noise. And this were more scary than any warcry.

That mostly late roman authors like vegetius posting, thats its a good idea to bring such a cry up it seems an evolution, depending on the mix of tribes in the army.