Lorica segmentata leathering

[Robert Vermaat]

How about that suggestion by Raffaele d'Amato that the plates of a segmentata were also edged with leather? He made a special point of it - mentioning that modern re-enactors all had it wrong. :wink:
Now I''m no experet on this, but indeed I've noticed that edged plates are not common in modern reconstructions, but then I've so far failed to see the tell-tale holes for edging that we see for instance on Late Roman helmets.

[Graham Sumner]

How about that suggestion by Raffaele d'Amato that the plates of a segmentata were also edged with leather? He made a special point of it - mentioning that modern re-enactors all had it wrong.
Now I''m no experet on this, but indeed I've noticed that edged plates are not common in modern reconstructions, but then I've so far failed to see the tell-tale holes for edging that we see for instance on Late Roman helmets.

Hi Robert

It has actually been years since I read Raffaele's original text but I was under the impression that his suggestion was, was that the leather was glued on not stitched. Certainly I was not asked by him to include stitch holes in the reconstruction. Any evidence for glue on the Plates Mike?

Graham.

[caiusbeerquitius]

I just wonder for how many days the glue would hold.... the plates are moving over each other. Other pieces of equipment are worn over the l.s., like the helmet, belts etc. How would the problem with the leather edges / humidity be solved? Thinned out and then layed over? Again, I think too much is interpreted into the display on the reliefs / Trajan´s column and Marcus´ Column IMO.

[mcbishop]

It has actually been years since I read Raffaele's original text but I was under the impression that his suggestion was, was that the leather was glued on not stitched. Certainly I was not asked by him to include stitch holes in the reconstruction. Any evidence for glue on the Plates Mike?

There is no evidence for leather edging on any of the lorica segmentata plates I have ever seen, particularly those with other mineral-preserved remains of leather attached to them (such as the Corbridge Hoard). If it was used, we would have found it. There is leather adhering to the Newstead armguard which was not, apparently, part of the system of internal leathers, but never on the cuirasses. It would be rather superfluous on those plates that they chose to edge in copper alloy (in the case of Kalkriese and Newstead cuirasses). I suspect Raffaele was flying one of his mischievous kites, there ;-) )

Thanks for the suggestion re Clayton, by the way.

Mike Bishop

[John Conyard]

I have to make various leather items. It seems Roman and Greek leather armours are subjects of interest at present, if not interesting subjects. <!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=25944&start=40">viewtopic.php?f=63&t=25944&start=40<!-- l describes various leathers.

Good old-fashioned vegetable tanned leather would seem a good option for internal straps. The major issue would be from which animal, goat or cow, and the thickness used. Several thicknesses’ of leather can be used to substitute on thick piece of leather. All of these, even the animal may be cleaned from archaeology. Not always, but sometimes

[mcbishop]

Good old-fashioned vegetable tanned leather would seem a good option for internal straps. The major issue would be from which animal, goat or cow, and the thickness used. Several thicknesses’ of leather can be used to substitute on thick piece of leather. All of these, even the animal may be cleaned from archaeology. Not always, but sometimes

The problem is that the archaeological evidence dictates that vegtanned leather was not used for lorica seg internal leathering (it only ever turns up as mineralized remains and never in deposits where vegtanned leather items do survive) and when we do find these straps they are only ever single thickness. The type of hide is unknowable, sadly, since (as far as I understand it) you can't determine species from the surviving fossilized straps (at the moment - perhaps in the future). Nothing is ever easy, is it? :-) )

Mike Bishop

[Marcus Mummius]

The type of hide is unknowable, sadly, since (as far as I understand it) you can't determine species from the surviving fossilized straps (at the moment - perhaps in the future). Nothing is ever easy, is it? :-) )

Mike Bishop

Mr. Bishop, I take it you mean in the specific case of the Corbridge hoard? One can determine the species of corrosion preserved leather, if the grain of the leather is well enough preserved.
Also to my knowledge leather remains are never completely replaced by corrosion products. The process is different to what happens to materials like textile fibres and wood. These two materials can be completely replaced. Leather in contact with iron is often preserved in the same way as horn or bone. The material is impregnated by iron salts and the actual leather, in modified, deteriorated state, survives (so it is not pseudomorphic replacement like can happen with textile or wood).

Vale,
Jef

[caiusbeerquitius]

So it is either rawhide, which I take Mike says is likely, or textile? Is there a find which could be textile?

[mcbishop]

So it is either rawhide, which I take Mike says is likely, or textile? Is there a find which could be textile?

Definitely not rawhide as that would stiffen up when dry (nasty memory there of when Quinta started up and I had to soak dog chews in my bath to make shield edging...). Buckskin ('brain-tanned' leather), chamois ('oil-tanned' leather) seem the most likely candidates, but the big unknown is how (or even if) alum-tawed leather survives in waterlogged conditions (if it doesn't, then that too would be a candidate). It is not textile as the mineralized straps have been analysed as being leather, you just can't determine species from the remains because of the way the mineralization process affects the structure (as I understand it).

Mike Bishop

[mcbishop]

Mr. Bishop, I take it you mean in the specific case of the Corbridge hoard? One can determine the species of corrosion preserved leather, if the grain of the leather is well enough preserved.
Also to my knowledge leather remains are never completely replaced by corrosion products. The process is different to what happens to materials like textile fibres and wood. These two materials can be completely replaced. Leather in contact with iron is often preserved in the same way as horn or bone. The material is impregnated by iron salts and the actual leather, in modified, deteriorated state, survives (so it is not pseudomorphic replacement like can happen with textile or wood).

Specifically in the case of the Corbridge Hoard (which is the only example where I know it has been examined). I seem to remember talking to Carol van Driel about this many years ago, but I can't remember what she told me!

Mike Bishop

[caiusbeerquitius]

Mike, it just happens so that I have a full calf hide of traditionally thawed alumn leather here, and that I will have to make two or three Kalkriese-type segmentatae for my project ([url:pvb1h6io]http://ckoepfer.de[/url]). I could tell you more about the qualities of this leather for segmentatae after the march, in fact I could make one of the experiments for my students out of this, using the other two leathers as well. Maybe someone reading this has an interest in this and funds us the other leather ( "buckskin" and chamois" ). Reward is eternal academic fame in form of being mentioned in the final publication. ^^ What do you think?

p.s.: @rawhide: I wouldn´t rule it out completely. Rawhide from the flanks of a e.g. calf is not so thick, resp. rawhide can also be thinned, which leaves it sort of flexible enough. I have several pieces in my workshop which are left-overs from shields, very thin, but certainly strong enough to work as segmentata-strips.

[M. Demetrius]

Well, I'm speaking here from experiences with rawhide used for a different purpose. Yes, it's hard, its edges sometimes sharp, and very tough for its thickness when it is dry. When it's wet from water or sweat, it becomes soft and stretches pretty considerably, depending on whether there is weight or pull applied to it. As it dries out, it returns to its dry dimension. (Remember the old cowboy movies in which the hapless settler is staked out with wet rawhide thongs? When that stuff dries, it shrinks and would be relentless in its pull...probably cutting off all blood to the extremities. Nasty way to end up.)

So if rawhide were the hanger material for seg, when wet, it would stretch downward, making the lames spread, and the further UP the band-stack, the more would be the stretch since the weight would be cumulative. It would very likely leave a gap between the upper couple of bands, I'd think, defeating the purpose of the armor. There were probably times when sweat would have wet the leather, and times when rain would have added to the wetness. I really wouldn't think rawhide would be the first choice for strap hangars.

I would be more inclined to "think cow" just because tanned cowhide is not so stretchy. Deer, elk, goat, sheep, all are nice leathers to work with, but from all I've handled, much more elastic than cowhide. Maybe they tanned them differently, but it seems to me the thickness would be a giveaway. In this list, only elk (red deer?) and cow have much thickness. But I'm no expert on much of anything.

[caiusbeerquitius]

To prevent this, all you have to do is wax the rawhide. :wink:

[John Conyard]

Ignoring the occult study of segmentata for a moment, rawhide is the least likely internal leathering. Waxing or more likely oiling would help, but not completely stop its moisture absorption and ability to stretch under tension.

Oiled leather, espicially thick oiled leather, would need liming to open up the fibres. This would need liming pits etc. I just don't know if this method or such pits were around in Roman Britain. The lime could be used to open up the fibres of the thick leather for the probably marine oil to penitrate. Brain tanned leather would be OK for relatively thin skins.

The alum in mineral tawed leather would leach out with the moisture that builds up inside the seg. Once again oil could be used to try and reduce the take up of moisture. But I do wonder just how much alum those poor classical miners could produce. Those Turkish mines must have been working flat out. It couldn't have been as common as good old vegetable tanned leather.

The obvious choice would be thick vegetable tanned leather. If it wasn't used, then why not? Was the reason production costs or the time spent in production? Or is there a more scientific answer.........

[M. Demetrius]

John, when you say "vegetable tanned", are you including the common oak tanning? Oak bark and leaves is a good source of tannic acid, the chemical whose name is inextricably woven into the tanning process, and the color of leather it produces.

Brain tanning, done worldwide afaik, is good for thin leathers, but requires that it be smoked to maintain water repellency...once it's become wet several times with insufficient smoking, it reverts to nearly a rawhide state, getting stiff and uncomfortable to wear. (known from self-experimentation with tanning deerskins. Icky process)