Armor: How effective was Chainmail

[Flavivs Aetivs]

There are, however, a number of high Medieval accounts of couched lances penetrating mail. Also, as has been already mentioned, mail often merely converted a piercing or cutting blow into a blunt-trauma injury, which could be incapacitating or mortal.

We've done this argument before in the Leather vs. Metal debate. Nothing short of a Couched lance can penetrate accurate mail, not even arrows. The couched lance was introduced by the Turks in the 9th century and needed Stirrups to be used with effect, so the Romans didn't have to worry about that.

Scorpiones can punch right through mail, I've seen video of a bolt going through the shield, armor, out the back, and into another guy's shield.

[Lothia]

Ave Civitas,
As always, great information. Thank you very much.
Tom

[M. Demetrius]

the chances of a blow breaking or fracturing bone and disabling an arm or leg are much greater with a more flexible armour.

Certainly true. And some kind of padding to absorb and distribute impact would make any armor more effective. As always, take a piece of metal, put it in contact with a shoulder or forearm bone, strike the metal with force and decide for yourself if padding was worn.

[Kegluneq]

The Adamklissi metopes show manica used with scale and mail. It's perhaps easy to see why plate might be preferable to mail as a limb defence - the chances of a blow breaking or fracturing bone and disabling an arm or leg are much greater with a more flexible armour.

D'oh! I had completely forgotten about those, which is disgraceful. Some kind of thick padding worn on the arm would certainly be appropriate (I don't think the Carlisle examples had any attachments other than for the leather straps holding them together).

[Condottiero Magno]

There are, however, a number of high Medieval accounts of couched lances penetrating mail. Also, as has been already mentioned, mail often merely converted a piercing or cutting blow into a blunt-trauma injury, which could be incapacitating or mortal.

We've done this argument before in the Leather vs. Metal debate. Nothing short of a Couched lance can penetrate accurate mail, not even arrows. The couched lance was introduced by the Turks in the 9th century and needed Stirrups to be used with effect, so the Romans didn't have to worry about that.

Scorpiones can punch right through mail, I've seen video of a bolt going through the shield, armor, out the back, and into another guy's shield.

The couched lance wasn't introduced by the Turks and had been in use before the introduction of stirrups. Mail could be penetrated by piercing or cutting, depending on the situation, and if its wearer was so invulnerable, especially against most projectiles, why was it gradually replaced by pieces of plate, such as brigadine, similar to a variant of lamellar armor, and relegated to protecting armpits?

[Flavivs Aetivs]

There are, however, a number of high Medieval accounts of couched lances penetrating mail. Also, as has been already mentioned, mail often merely converted a piercing or cutting blow into a blunt-trauma injury, which could be incapacitating or mortal.

We've done this argument before in the Leather vs. Metal debate. Nothing short of a Couched lance can penetrate accurate mail, not even arrows. The couched lance was introduced by the Turks in the 9th century and needed Stirrups to be used with effect, so the Romans didn't have to worry about that.

Scorpiones can punch right through mail, I've seen video of a bolt going through the shield, armor, out the back, and into another guy's shield.

The couched lance wasn't introduced by the Turks and had been in use before the introduction of stirrups. Mail could be penetrated by piercing or cutting, depending on the situation, and if its wearer was so invulnerable, especially against most projectiles, why was it gradually replaced by pieces of plate, such as brigadine, similar to a variant of lamellar armor, and relegated to protecting armpits?

Lamellar was for the most part munitions armor. The armpits usually were considered important to protect because A. The Romans didn't use sleeves until the 4th century and B. because the blunt force trauma of a hit there would break ribs and possibly puncture the spleen or heart if a rib broke in the right manner.

[Condottiero Magno]

There are, however, a number of high Medieval accounts of couched lances penetrating mail. Also, as has been already mentioned, mail often merely converted a piercing or cutting blow into a blunt-trauma injury, which could be incapacitating or mortal.

We've done this argument before in the Leather vs. Metal debate. Nothing short of a Couched lance can penetrate accurate mail, not even arrows. The couched lance was introduced by the Turks in the 9th century and needed Stirrups to be used with effect, so the Romans didn't have to worry about that.

Scorpiones can punch right through mail, I've seen video of a bolt going through the shield, armor, out the back, and into another guy's shield.

The couched lance wasn't introduced by the Turks and had been in use before the introduction of stirrups. Mail could be penetrated by piercing or cutting, depending on the situation, and if its wearer was so invulnerable, especially against most projectiles, why was it gradually replaced by pieces of plate, such as brigadine, similar to a variant of lamellar armor, and relegated to protecting armpits?

Lamellar was for the most part munitions armor. The armpits usually were considered important to protect because A. The Romans didn't use sleeves until the 4th century and B. because the blunt force trauma of a hit there would break ribs and possibly puncture the spleen or heart if a rib broke in the right manner.

Munitions armor is simply stockpiled mass produced armor, with any adjustments made later by the recipient, and it doesn't necessarily mean it's of lesser quality, though nothing beats something that's customized for the wearer - please don't throw it around like a pejorative. Mail was also for the most part munitions armor, with places devoted to manufacturing coil, another for making rings and a third for assembling it.

A and B doesn't address what I've said about the relegation of mail to areas that required protection and flexibility. As early as the 13th Century, parts of the body that was previously covered in mail, was supplemented or replaced by plate, with some influence from the East - 13th Century shoulder protection looks similar to that worn by Roman Kataphractoi, at least from 100/200 years ago.

Principiate and earlier era Roman troops didn't need arm protection, though the tech was available even earlier, looking at Archaic Age Hoplites.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I see your point, and they did use arm protection called Manica. The reasons for their use of it have already been discussed.

[Dan Howard]

Scorpiones can punch right through mail, I've seen video of a bolt going through the shield, armor, out the back, and into another guy's shield.

Except that the mail used in these tests are useless. I get tired of saying again and again that the Indian imported riveted mail is completely unsuitable for weapons tests since it has nothing in common with historical mail.
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19189

Look at some surviving pieces of Roman mail. They are a lot heavier and more resistant to weapons than the Indian mail.

The couched lance wasn't introduced by the Turks and had been in use before the introduction of stirrups. Mail could be penetrated by piercing or cutting, depending on the situation, and if its wearer was so invulnerable, especially against most projectiles, why was it gradually replaced by pieces of plate, such as brigadine, similar to a variant of lamellar armor, and relegated to protecting armpits?

That question is answered here.
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html
It gets tiring going over and over the same points because people are too lazy to do some basic research.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Hmm I stand corrected on both of those points I made. Thank you for that informative link.

[Eleatic Guest]

It gets tiring going over and over the same points because people are too lazy to do some basic research.

Then publish your stuff. While reading your thoroughly researched article on mail at myarmoury I thought why is this not published in some journal?

[Thomas Aagaard]

integrated padded:
When I use my mail, and do (medieval) mock fighting, my padding often ends up "wet" with sweat... and after a weekend of this the mail is red with surface rust on the inside.
(easy to remove with oil and a towel)
If I wear it during the (danish) summer it will happen, even if Iam not doing anything high intensity activity.
And it is only in contact with the padding when Iam actually wearing it.
But if the padding is attached to the mail all the time, will rust not become a serious problem?

Or did they just remove the padding once a month and removed the rust? or?
(please note Iam not saying the theory is wrong, but just asking some practical question based on my experience with unhistorical indian made mail. And that problem might not be present with proper mail that is worn ever day))

Any anyone tested the idea about integrated padded IRL?

[Condottiero Magno]

Scorpiones can punch right through mail, I've seen video of a bolt going through the shield, armor, out the back, and into another guy's shield.

Except that the mail used in these tests are useless. I get tired of saying again and again that the Indian imported riveted mail is completely unsuitable for weapons tests since it has nothing in common with historical mail.
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19189

Look at some surviving pieces of Roman mail. They are a lot heavier and more resistant to weapons than the Indian mail.

Please ascribe posts to the appropriate poster.

The couched lance wasn't introduced by the Turks and had been in use before the introduction of stirrups. Mail could be penetrated by piercing or cutting, depending on the situation, and if its wearer was so invulnerable, especially against most projectiles, why was it gradually replaced by pieces of plate, such as brigadine, similar to a variant of lamellar armor, and relegated to protecting armpits?

That question is answered here.
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html
It gets tiring going over and over the same points because people are too lazy to do some basic research.

Like the basic research that led to your claim that Mr. Dawson "couldn't find any evidence either so he just made that up" concerning Byzantine lamellar? If you are going to refute someone's claim, at least strive for accuracy and avoid cherry picking text, especially from the Alexiad, a work of a biased bitter woman .

I have read your article and while there is not much to disagree with, it does not invalidate what I said concerning mail and could quote from it.

[Dan Howard]

integrated padded:
When I use my mail, and do (medieval) mock fighting, my padding often ends up "wet" with sweat... and after a weekend of this the mail is red with surface rust on the inside.
(easy to remove with oil and a towel)
If I wear it during the (danish) summer it will happen, even if Iam not doing anything high intensity activity.
And it is only in contact with the padding when Iam actually wearing it.
But if the padding is attached to the mail all the time, will rust not become a serious problem?

Or did they just remove the padding once a month and removed the rust? or?
(please note Iam not saying the theory is wrong, but just asking some practical question based on my experience with unhistorical indian made mail. And that problem might not be present with proper mail that is worn ever day))

Any anyone tested the idea about integrated padded IRL?

I've worn different types of mail with integrated liners. It is more comfortable and easier to don and remove than a separate arming garment. The liner gets dirty and wears out, but so does the cloth on all of the other types of armour that mix metal and cloth such as coats of plates, brigandines, jazerants, gestrons, kazaghands, jack of plates, brigandines, corrazinas, etc. Here is a passage written by Usamah about when he showed Saladin the construction of his kazaghand:

"I pulled out my knife and ripped it at the breast and disclosed the side of the two coats of mail. The kazaghand enclosed a Frankish coat of mail extending to the bottom of it, with another coat of mail on top of it reaching as far as the middle. Both were equipped with the proper linings, felt pads, silk stuffing (al-lasin) and rabbits' hair."

A kazaghand consists of mail that is sandwiched between layers of padding on the inside AND outside. He wouldn't have thought twice about ripping open the cloth. When he finished showing it off to Saladin he would have tossed it to a slave/servant and expected it to be mended by the next day.

[Robert Vermaat]

That question is answered here.
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html
It gets tiring going over and over the same points because people are too lazy to do some basic research.

Please don't be tired of answering Dan. For us veterans it's uch easier to find/know where the information is. Of course it's recommended to do some research yourself before asking, but that is part of the raison d'etre of this forum, isn't it? To show thenewbes where the info is? mile: