Roman Sword ??

[Cornelius Quintus]

Ave,

I now read the thread in the other forum.

Was there no metallurgical expertise with it?

The difference in terms of times/age between guard and pommel style (9th-11th century) won't speak for a missing link. I would expect another early medieval pommel type in that case.

Internet-auctions of 'one in a lifetime'-chances, missing links, Eastern European origin, pressure of time and small information unfortunately are common. Like eBay - You will seldom know, who the other bidders are - and that they are no Dummies.

Last year, a so called Viking nasal helmet was sold at eBay for some thousand Euros. A water find, too, but not claimed as being genuine for sure. Being genuine, it would have been a sensation, because there are only a few finds of that age, most fragmentary or not in nearly mint, only lightly rusted condition. Afterward, I watched this auction, too. But there never came a comment or feedback of the vendor nor the buyer of the helmet. Perhaps, in the following 90 days their lawyers were too busy with the auction itself :wink:

There are many ways to let metal corrode in a short time. So You will need to have a close look at the origin, the style of the item and then check the material. It is not uncommon, that the vendor of a more or less crude fake calls it "missing link", because he did not invest the time in research to produce a more consistent 'original'. A museum with a reliable reputation will sell such a rare item not at uncommon places, but rather at Christie's :wink: , or other specialized auctions. Other museums or private collectors will pay much higher prices this way than hobbyist, who are looking for a hidden-treasure-'bargain', like the everyday hoards of uncleaned Roman coins from Eastern Europe at eBay...

But perhaps You were the lucky one or know the result of that auction - please give a feedback!

Greetings from Germany

Heiko (Cornelius Quintus)

[Tarbicus]

Like eBay - You will seldom know, who the other bidders are - and that they are no Dummies.... A museum with a reliable reputation will sell such a rare item not at uncommon places, but rather at Christie's Wink , or other specialized auctions. Other museums or private collectors will pay much higher prices this way than hobbyist, who are looking for a hidden-treasure-'bargain', like the everyday hoards of uncleaned Roman coins from Eastern Europe at eBay...

That's a little behind the times. Some very prestigious auction houses are using Ebay to increase their bidders, via 'Live Auctions'. There have been many Guttmann objects sold this way on Ebay, although an Ebay bidder may not have actually won the auction. The anonymity of other bidders also reflects what can happen in a "real" auction, where a bidder wishes to remain anonymous for security and privacy reasons. This also happens on Ebay with higher value objects for what are pretty obvious reasons. There would have been no feedback because neither buyer nor seller wishes the buyer to be identifiable.

Fakes, etc, are just as prevalent outside of Ebay. Any reputable Ebay dealer should have no problem with you visiting to check the item yourself, and if they are cagey about a visit then you would be right to be suspicious. Any item should also come with a Certificate of Authenticity just like a high street dealer does, so if the object is found to not be what it says on the box you can just simply return it and get your money back. If you don't have any of these options then you may deserve to be stung.

And don't forget the Christie's late Roman helm which a number of experts on this forum believed was bogus. :wink:

[Cornelius Quintus]

That's a little behind the times. Some very prestigious auction houses are using Ebay to increase their bidders, via 'Live Auctions'. There have been many Guttmann objects sold this way on Ebay, although an Ebay bidder may not have actually won the auction. The anonymity of other bidders also reflects what can happen in a "real" auction, where a bidder wishes to remain anonymous for security and privacy reasons.

Ave Tarbicus,

You are totally right. The point is: reliable vendors use eBay to increase publicity. That increases the biddings :wink: And of course, You will get detailed information - even if experts could make mistakes.

The mentioned auction of the so-called Viking helmet was not private, as I remember. So I could check, what other kind of transactions the vendor and the buyer normally did...

Therefore I am always a little bit on alert, when someone, like Conal, fears to give information about a 'somewhat hidden' auction, not to awake sleeping dogs.

In my eyes, items made of metal or pottery hardly will show their real age at first glance at the surface of the material. Compared to organic materials (like wood, fabric or leather), metal and pottery won't mutate that much while aging.

So looking at the endless stream of genuine oil lamps at eBay, I am sometimes wondering, how the Romans manufactured millions of them, sturdy enough to survive nearly a bimillenary of wars and catastrophes. Perhaps 'Made in Rome' quality excels 'Made in Germany' in any way. Or perhaps it's the invention of modern dishwashers that will ruin today's pottery in less than two years... :lol:

Personally, if serious doubts are remaining, I only would increase my bidding to the price, I would pay for a copy of such quality. Otherwise, I hope that my lifetime will last to a second chance :wink:

Greetings from Germany

Heiko (Cornelius Quintus)

[Tarbicus]

So looking at the endless stream of genuine oil lamps at eBay, I am sometimes wondering, how the Romans manufactured millions of them, sturdy enough to survive nearly a bimillenary of wars and catastrophes. Perhaps 'Made in Rome' quality excels 'Made in Germany' in any way. Or perhaps it's the invention of modern dishwashers that will ruin today's pottery in less than two years... Laughing

ROFL That's a very good point! If at all in doubt I wouldn't buy.

Personally, if serious doubts are remaining, I only would increase my bidding to the price, I would pay for a copy of such quality. Otherwise, I hope that my lifetime will last to a second chance Wink

A very wise approach. You could always request a viewing, without necessarily meaning to follow through, and partially judge them by their reaction. One thing I like about Ebay is all correspondence is recorded by messaging and emails, not an over-the-counter conversation which is hard to prove later.

[Cornelius Quintus]

Ave,

I confess I was nosy, so I checked Alfred Geibig's "Beiträge zur morphologischen Entwicklung des Schwertes im Mittelalter", which features photographs and additional drawings of about 160 swords (8th -12th century).

No problem to find nearly matching pommels around the 9th-11th century.

But I could not detect any hint to such a unique combination of guard, pommel and blade. I wonder about the balance of the weapon, with short blade but heavy and massive metal guard and pommel.

The lower guard indeed is far away from Viking styles and blade looks too short at all. That's a good point for Conal, who is interested in a Roman sword, not a Viking one.

The pommel remains another corner mark, directing more to the 9th-11th century.

Supposing the sword to be genuine and a hybrid form or missing link, it should have skipped two or three centuries between guard and pommel...

The Vikings preferred Frankish blades (and were keen on brand-name products like the famous ulfberht-blades), but fitted them with their own guard, grip and pommel. Perhaps this sword is really a early Frankish design, as tlclark guesses?

Anyone out there, who has evidence for this metal pommel style used in late Roman times or at least before the 8th century? And additional examples of the lower guard style?

Greetings from Germany

Heiko (Cornelius Quintus)

[Marius_Ursus]

Not a Roman hilt, maybe Viking with a corroded blade?

That's just what I was thinking. The pommel looks like the classic "viking" shape.

[Conal]

"Therefore I am always a little bit on alert, when someone, like Conal, fears to give information about a 'somewhat hidden' auction, not to awake sleeping dogs"

just to clarify I only posted it as a matter of interst and debate. My own view is that if it had decent provenace it would be going though one of the big aution houses but you never know what might be genuine and what might not be :?:


"The lower guard indeed is far away from Viking styles and blade looks too short at all. That's a good point for Conal, who is interested in a Roman sword, not a Viking one"

I dont believe any self repecting Viking would have used such a thing .. too small.

Conal
[/b]

[Cornelius Quintus]

just to clarify I only posted it as a matter of interst and debate. My own view is that if it had decent provenace it would be going though one of the big aution houses but you never know what might be genuine and what might not be :?:

Ave Conal,

I just understood You that way. I did not want to offend You. In contrary, I remembered myself spending much of my money on some things, believing this would be the chance of the decade :wink:

Today I try to keep cool and ask specialists before, the same was You did, too. My own experience: Some of the best things are sold either at very fair conditions 'under friends' - or at high prices with all publicity available (and no chance for me to get it).

I dont believe any self repecting Viking would have used such a thing .. too small

wink: )

Greetings from Barbarian Germany

Heiko (Cornelius Quintus)

[stevesarak]

Well? Did you buy it after all?

Yes, I'm the proud owner of it and am hoping to pick up a 1st A.D. pugio in a couple of weeks from the Guttmann Collection.


"the pommel really matches more to a 9th to 11th century Viking sword of Petersen type X"

That's what made it so hard to go for it. I agree the pommel looks Viking, but you have to look at the rest of the swords as well. The guard is really too thick and tapers inwards, which really isn’t Viking. Take a look at the blade, its diamond shape, the Vikings usually had what some call a blood groove running down the center. and, I don’t remember the details of Viking length, but if I remember correctly, the sword is also to short for Viking.

The exports agree that without the pommel, it’s Roman but considering the shape of the guard, it is probably late Rome. “Late Roman/early Age of Migration, 4th-6th centuries A.Dâ€

[aitor iriarte]

Now that we're talking about ex-Guttmann items... does anybody know the present whereabouts of that fragmentary crested Intercisa type helmet? :?:

Aitor

[Tarbicus]

In Römische Schwerter im Gebiet des europäischen Barbaricum, by Marcin Biborski, there are illustrations of ring pommel swords with similar hilts - vertical at the edges though, not angled as in yours. Obviously they have ring pommels ( :? ), so there's a big difference there. There are also no top views, so I don't know if they're flat sided or curved. But I'd hazard a guess and say they're flat.

The paper is in Military Equipment in Context: Proceedings of the Ninth International ROMEC, Leiden, 1994. Ed. C. van Driel-Murray.

[Cornelius Quintus]

Ave Steve,

my congratulations! Must be a great feeling, to hold the real sword in Your hands!

Now with this additional information, it sounds like You made the right choice.

And if You'll win the Guttmann's pugio auction - could You post a detailed photograph of it for us ? At the prices You mentioned, I have to content myself with good images and spare any cent for the next one or two... centuries :wink:

Greetings from Germany

Heiko (Cornelius Quintus)

[stevesarak]

In Römische Schwerter im Gebiet des europäischen Barbaricum, by Marcin Biborski, there are illustrations of ring pommel swords with similar hilts - vertical at the edges though, not angled as in yours. Obviously they have ring pommels ( :? ), so there's a big difference there. There are also no top views, so I don't know if they're flat sided or curved. But I'd hazard a guess and say they're flat.

The paper is in Military Equipment in Context: Proceedings of the Ninth International ROMEC, Leiden, 1994. Ed. C. van Driel-Murray.

Any chance of a link to a picture?



If I get the pugio, I'll post some pictures.

[Tarbicus]

Any chance of a link to a picture?

Check the PM I just sent.

[stevesarak]

Ave Steve,

my congratulations! Must be a great feeling, to hold the real sword in Your hands!

Greetings from Germany

Heiko (Cornelius Quintus)

It’s a great feeling that I think only someone interested in old Rome, or possible old antique swords, could appreciate. When I first received the sword, and of course after putting on some gloves, I had to sit down, holding it between my hands and think about the history of it. Did it see any battles, did the original owner, a Roman soldier, at the end of the day, sit down with it, like I was, and clean all the gunk away from a days march.

It was a fresh water find, how did it get there. Romans didn’t throw the swords of their fallen into bodies of water, was their a fight and the soldier fell in the water, if so, why didn’t if corrode away? Was the soldier in a battle, maybe against mounted troops, when he fell, the pursuing horse trampled on it, pushing it deep into the protection of the mud?

If somehow he was pulled to the now, would he recognized his old sword with the strange pommel and if so, what would he think about its current, corroded condition, would he feel sad for it or oh well it was just a sword.

It’s a good feeling to hold something that links you back to the past, think about those times, and know that in a small way you’re connected.