Pre Marian Legion Organisation

[Matthew]

Salve, David

I suppose it's worth quoting the translation in full here anyway...

From Polybius, Book 6, Chapters 22-23:

XXII. Kai tois men neôtatois parêngeilan machairan phorein kai grosphous kai parmên. [2] hê de parmê kai dunamin echei têi kataskeuêi kai megethos arkoun pros asphaleian: peripherês gar ousa tôi schêmati tripedon echei tên diametron. [3] prosepikosmeitai de kai litôi perikephalaiôi: pote de lukeian ê ti tôn toioutôn epitithetai, skepês hama kai sêmeiou charin, hina tois kata meros hêgemosi prokinduneuontes errômenôs kai mê diadêloi ginôntai. [4] to de tôn grosphôn belos echei tôi men mêkei to xulon hôs epipan dipêchu, tôi de pachei daktuliaion, to de kentron spithamiaion, kata tosouton epi lepton exelêlasmenon kai sunôxusmenon hôste kat' anankên eutheôs apo tês prôtês embolês kamptesthai kai mê dunasthai tous polemious antiballein: ei de mê, koinon ginetai to belos.

"The youngest of these troops are armed with a sword, light javelins, and a buckler. The buckler is both strongly made, and of a size sufficient for security. For it is of a circular form, and has three feet in the diameter. They wear likewise upon their heads some simple sort of covering; such as the skin of a wolf, or something of a similar kind; which serves both for their defense, and to point out also to the commanders those particular soldiers that are distinguished either by their bravery or want of courage in the time of action. The wood of the javelins is of the length of two cubits, and of the thickness of a finger. The iron part is a span in length, and is drawn out to such a slender fineness towards the point, that it never fails to be bent in the very first discharge, so that the enemy cannot throw it back again. Otherwise it would be a common javelin.

XXIII. Tois ge mên deuterois men kata tên hêlikian, hastatois de prosagoreuomenois, parêngeilan pherein panoplian. [2] esti d' hê Rhômaïkê panoplia prôton men thureos -- hou to men platos esti tês kurtês epiphaneias penth' hêmipodiôn, to de mêkos podôn tettarôn, to d' ep' ituos pachos eti kai palaistiaion -- [3] ek diplou sanidômatos taurokollêi pepêgôs, othoniôi, meta de tauta moscheiôi dermati perieilêtai tên ektos epiphaneian. [4] echei de peri tên itun ek tôn anôthen kai katôthen merôn sidêroun sialôma, di' hou tas te kataphoras tôn machairôn asphalizetai kai tas pros tên gên exereiseis. [5] prosêrmostai d' autôi kai sidêra konchos, hê tas holoschereis apostegei plêgas lithôn kai sarisôn kai katholou biaiôn belôn. [6] hama de tôi thureôi machaira: tautên de peri ton dexion pherei mêron, kalousi d' autên Ibêrikên. [7] echei d' hautê kentêma diaphoron kai kataphoran ex amphoin toin meroin biaion dia to ton obeliskon autês ischuron kai monimon einai. [8] pros de toutois hussoi duo kai perikephalaia chalkê kai proknêmis. tôn d' hussôn eisin hoi men pacheis, hoi de leptoi. [9] tôn de stereôterôn hoi men stronguloi palaistiaian echousi tên diametron, hoi de tetragônoi tên pleuran. hoi ge mên leptoi sibuniois eoikasi summetrois, hous phorousi meta tôn proeirêmenôn. [10] hapantôn de toutôn tou xulou to mêkos estin hôs treis pêcheis. prosêrmostai d' hekastois belos sidêroun ankistrôton, ison echon to mêkos tois xulois: [11] hou tên endesin kai tên chreian houtôs asphalizontai bebaiôs, heôs mesôn tôn xulôn endidentes kai puknais tais labisi kataperonôntes, hôste proteron ê ton desmon en tais chreiais anachalasthênai ton sidêron thrauesthai, kaiper onta to pachos en tôi puthmeni kai têi pros to xulon sunaphêi triôn hêmidaktuliôn: epi tosouton kai toiautên pronoian poiountai tês endeseôs. [12] epi de pasi toutois prosepikosmountai pterinôi stephanôi kai pterois phoinikois ê melasin orthois trisin, [13] hôs pêchuaiois to megethos, hôn prostethentôn kata koruphên hama tois allois hoplois ho men anêr phainetai diplasios heautou kata to megethos, hê d' opsis kalê kai kataplêktikê tois enantiois. [14] hoi men oun polloi proslabontes chalkôma spithamiaion pantêi pantôs, ho prostithentai men pro tôn sternôn, kalousi de kardiophulaka, teleian echousi tên kathoplisin: [15] hoi d' huper tas murias timômenoi drachmas anti tou kardiophulakos sun tois allois halusidôtous peritithentai thôrakas. [16] ho d' autos tropos tês kathopliseôs esti kai peri tous prinkipas kai triarious, plên anti tôn hussôn hoi triarioi dorata phorousin.

The next in age, who are called the hastati, are ordered to furnish themselves with a complete suit of armor. This among the Romans consists in the first place of a shield of a convex surface; the breadth of which is two feet and a half; and the length four feet, or four feet and a palm of those of the largest size. It is composed of two planks, glued together, and covered first with linen, and afterwards with calves' skin. The extreme edges of it, both above and below, are guarded with plates of iron; as well to secure it against the strokes of swords, as that it may be rested also upon the ground without receiving any injury. To the surface is fitted likewise a shell of iron; which serves to turn aside the more violent strokes of stones, or spears, or any other ponderous weapon. After the shield comes the sword, which is carried upon the right thigh, and is called the Spanish sword. It is formed not only to push with at the point; but to make a falling stroke with either edge, and with singular effect; for the blade is remarkably strong and firm. To these arms are added two piles or javelins; a helmet made of brass; and boots for the legs. The piles are of two sorts; the one large, the other slender.

Of the former those that are round have the breadth of a palm in their diameter; and those that are square the breadth of a palm likewise is a side. The more slender, which are carried with the other, resemble a common javelin of a moderate size. In both sorts, the wooden part is of the same length likewise, and turned outwards at the point, in the form of a double hook, is fastened to the wood with so great care and foresight, being carried upwards to the very middle of it, and transfixed with many close-set rivets, that it is sooner broken in use than loosened; though in the part in which it is joined to the wood, it is not less than a finger and a half in thickness. Upon the helmet is worn an ornament of three upright feathers, either red or black, of about a cubit in height; which being fixed upon the very top of the head, and added to their other arms, make the troops seem to be of double size, and gives them an appearance which is both beautiful and terrible. Beside these arms, the soldiers in general place also upon their breasts a square plate of brass, of the measure of a span on either side, which is called the guard of the heart. But all those who are rated at more than ten thousand drachmae cover their breasts with a coat of mail. The principes and the triarii are armed in the same manner likewise as the hastati; except only that the triarii carry pikes instead of javelins."

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/polybius6.html

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... /home.html

I have not seen the original Ancient Greek, so I am going by the translation, but as you can see the shield dimensions are provided. [However, I should point out that the Roman Foot was slightly shorter than the modern one (11.75", I think)]

In the third paragraph you can see that wealth had a role to play in the Legion, even when the individuals are rated by age rather than wealth, as you indicate. Some Hastati would have been armoured in mail and some would wear only a small chest plate, which was what I was referring to. The point being that the Velites, as a class, might not have had very much less armour than the poorest in the Heavy Infantry, so we should probably not reject the possibility of them fighting in the front line through lack of armour. How many of these there might be in any given class is by no means clear, of course, and it really is just a suggestion (I have no clear idea what the Velites role was once the Heavy Infantry was joined, which is part of the question posed in this thread).

Matthew James Stanham

[Pullarius]

Thanks for the reply. I am not all that familar with Polybius having focused more on Livy myself, of course he isnt really a primary source for this period as he wrote at the turn of the millienum. And I dont doubt the idea that the velites fought in the front lines at all I was just curious about the idea of uniformity in the equipment of the republican legions as its at odds with what most modern sources assert. Personally I have always felt that after the initial skrimishes it would be not all that unusual for the velites to be used as flank security much as armored calvalry units are today.

[M.ilionario]

This question might be a little stupid but here it goes:
Couldn't the velites, after pulling back to leave the hastati fighting, rush into the flanks of the enemy and throw their javelins while they were engaged?

[Matthew]

Salve, Francisco

Absolutely it is possible, and they appear to be doing just that in Polybius Book 11, Chapter 22:

22 On this occasion we see Scipio employing two different stratagems. 2Observing that Hasdrubal always brought ship troops out of camp at a late hour and drew them up with the Libyans in the centre and the elephants in front of the two wings, and having himself been in the habit of delaying until a later hour 3and of opposing the Romans to the Libyans in the centre and stationing the Spaniards on his wings, he acted on the day on which he had decided to deliver the decisive battle in a precisely opposite manner, and thus much contributed to the victory of his own army and the discomfiture of the enemy. 4For as soon as it was light he sent a message by his aides-de-camp to all the tribunes p275and soldiers to take their morning meal and arm themselves and march out of the camp. 5When this was done, all showing great zeal in carrying out the order, as they suspected what was in the wind, he sent on the cavalry and light infantry with orders to get close up to the enemy's camp and shoot at him boldly, while he himself with his infantry advanced just as the sun was rising, and when he reached the middle of the plain, formed in order of battle, disposing his troops in an order contrary to that which he had previously used, as he placed the Spaniards in the centre and the Romans on the wings. 7The Carthaginians, upon the enemy's cavalry coming suddenly up to their camp and the rest of his army forming up in full view, scarcely had time to arm themselves. 8So that Hasdrubal, with his men still fasting, was obliged on the spur of the moment and without any preparation to send off his own cavalry and light infantry to engage those of the enemy on the plain and to draw up his heavy infantry on the level ground at no great distance from the foot of the hill, as was his usual practice. 9For a certain time the Romans remained inactive, but when, as the day advanced, there was no decisive advantage on either side in the engagement of the light-armed troops, those who were hard pressed always retreating to the shelter of their respective phalanxes and then issuing forth again to resume the combat, 10Scipio receiving the skirmishers through the intervals between his cohorts distributed them on his wings behind his infantry, placing the velites in front with the horse behind them. At first p277he made a direct frontal advance, 11but when at a distance of four stades from the enemy he ordered the Spaniards to continue advantage in the same order but the infantry and cavalry on the right wing to wheel to the right and those of the left wing to wheel to the left.

However, it is by no means clear that this was always their secondary role on the battlefield, as this appears to be a strategem contrary to the usual custom of the Romans (i.e. to have their allies occupy the centre of the battle line).

Matthew James Stanham

[Caius Fabius]

Polybius translations... and feet

Roman feet? (which one) Or modern feet?

Which translation? One online somewhere?
Does it have original language comparison?
What is the date of the manuscript being used as the source?

Sometimes translations leave more questions... :twisted:

[Matthew]

Salve,

Good question. As I said at the outset, I am limited to two translations up on the internet at the moment (see the links in the first post), neither of which provide the original Greek or terms, sadly. Indeed, part of the reason for posting here was to see if anybody knew the text sufficiently well to be able to explain some of the stranger parts of the translation (i.e. 1,000 Velites or 1,200?). There is a third translation I have recently encountered, which apparently provides the Greek, I will link to it if momentarily.

Ah, found it, Perseus project of course... I'll update the previous quotations with the Greek.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... ok%3D%2311

Matthew

[Tarbicus]

I can't personally see why they would run out and keep hold of their javelins, only to run back to the legion. How would they be able to fight holding them, especially if they were even flimsier than a normal javelin?

[Matthew]

What are you talking about Jim?

[Tarbicus]

Couldn't the velites, after pulling back to leave the hastati fighting, rush into the flanks of the enemy and throw their javelins while they were engaged?

Sorry, had the reply open for a while before submitting when others had made other comments.

But, I still don't see how they would have their javelins after throwing them and fighting in the initial engagement and then withdrawing.

[M.ilionario]

No....
Are they supposed to fight in the front lines?
Surely they wouldn't be able to throw all their javelins before the main clash of the Hastati....if they, by mere chance could throw them all before that, then their job was done and they could simply hide behind the Triarii or go to the fray if the situation was dire....

[Matthew]

Ah, right, I see. I don't know, but there are a number of possible explanations:

1) A central reserve of Javelins placed behind the Triarii, that the Velites use to resupply before being redeployed (No evidence for this)

2) They obtained them from the enemy Light Infantry during the course of the action.

3) The expenditure of Javelins in any given engagement might be very low, meaning that they did not throw more than one (if that) in the opening stages of the battle

Personally, I have no idea which of these (if any) could explain this, but Polybius is fairly clear that in this case they deployed, saw action and redeployed (though there is no indication they saw action again, their position in front of the Manipuli suggests that they were fulfilling their usual battlefield role).

[M.ilionario]

3) The expenditure of Javelins in any given engagement might be very low, meaning that they did not throw more than one (if that) in the opening stages of the battle

Yup,
You don't have much time to throw javelins before the enemy is too near and you have to fall back.....

[Tarbicus]

No....
Are they supposed to fight in the front lines?
Surely they wouldn't be able to throw all their javelins before the main clash of the Hastati....if they, by mere chance could throw them all before that, then their job was done and they could simply hide behind the Triarii or go to the fray if the situation was dire....

It depends on how the battle is interpreted. I'm going by the description I gave earlier which I got from Lendon which I read as the velites were in combat for some time before the other classes even walked forward.

Ah, right, I see. I don't know, but there are a number of possible explanations:

1) A central reserve of Javelins placed behind the Triarii, that the Velites use to resupply before being redeployed (No evidence for this)

Makes sense though. I can't see why the javelins wouldn't be behind, or even between, the hastati to be honest. Another possibility is the sling may have been used perhaps - they proved very effective at Cannae against the hemmed in Romans? But the impression I get of Lendon's approach is that the velites were supposed to get combat experience, which I interpretted as actual one-on-one combat to prove themselves in front of the rest of the army. Hence the animal skins for easier identification.

[Matthew]

Certainly possible. I just went with Triarii for the particular engagement in the example, which was, of course, exceptional. There, the Velites withdraw entirely through the intervals between the Cohorts [i.e. the three lines, in my opinion].

Interestingly, Polybius does talk about the Velites (and other Light Infantry) withdrawing to their respecive Phalanxes for a time and then once again attacking the enemy, which is time that *could* have been spent rearming. This description is fairly clear that the Light infantry engagement was prolonged.

Matthew James Stanham

[Q Rutilius]

[/quote]Taking into account the above calculations for numbers of Velites and their division amongst the Manipuli, one could make a good case for this number in each interval being made up of the Velites assigned to the corresponding Cohort of Heavy Infantry (i.e. 3 x 40 or Hastati Velites + Principes Velites + Triarii Velites). The infantry deployment would look something like this:

= = = = = = = = = = Triarii
= = = = = = = = = = Principes
=============== Hastati + Velites
[quote]

This is sort of like what I have had in mind. The velites have to start up front because they engage the enemy first. After they advance from the first line and as they move around in very open order throwing their javelins they could look very much like a swarm or mob. The horn sounds and they retire. Where do they retire too? Mathew's posts make it plane they are rarely mentioned again in the old accounts, so presumably they withdrew far back away from the fighting. Back with the triarii? Behind the triarrii? As a practical matter it probably makes no difference. The important thing is that they got out of the way of the hastati. Now to my mind, in order to make the withdrawl efficient every velite has to know where to go. This implies some kind of unit organization. (Your unit withdraws through the second gap in the line of hastati.) And this fits in nicely with the proposed organization quoted above.