Jumping right in: tunica clavii............

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Greg,

It looks great, however, I have no proof that it has been used on tunicas. Though I know that Coptic egyptian knew Batik (with wax and Indigo) and selective ways of dying for Stolae or Curtains. So I unconsciously forgot it but I'm looking more often towards silk painting products for a next tunica. In France the people who use these technics are often barbarian auxiliaries reenactors... but I don't know if they have accurate informations about this ?
But if you have sources, I'm interested ...

Well, that's the point of all the techniques we have been discussing. Since a real one-piece woven decorated tunic is either unavailable or way too expensive, we look for 'solutions'. Embroidering was done of course, but most decorations were either entirely woven, or woven with additional embroidery. That means that 100% embroidered decorations are not authentic either. Which means were are forced to compromise fromt the statrt. The painting, patchwork or machine embroidering are not authentic, but we use them to get the best 'impression' to convey to the public.

You mean "steam iron transferringleaves" that you prepare with a printer ?

Yes, these are transfers which you go to a copyshop with. Last time I tried I took a sheet of light linen with me, and the results looked very good. It's of course not authentic, but the decorations are copies from authentic ones, which in my opinion gives a better impression than many other solutions.

For the sleeves, I still don't know if I try card-weaving or if I reproduct this one or another ? :lol:

Arf ! unfortunately, it's a bit too early for me.

Edit : Dated from 4-5th c. but if you know where this piece is located or where it has been published, I'm interested to know it.

Why is it too early? I'm still not impressed by many dating attempts. Is figurative decoration not meant to be 5th c. and later? I guess the experts differ in opinion.. If you doubt you can always say it cam from your grandpa's tunic..

[Bran ap Maclou]

Hi Greg,

Embroidering was done of course, but most decorations were either entirely woven, or woven with additional embroidery. That means that 100% embroidered decorations are not authentic either.

I will go further, according to MH Rutschowscaya, this was not embroidering at all but the weaver used during his work a "navette volante" (in english : ?? flying shuttle ? :roll: ) . So it's a bit the same thing as embroidering but the work is done during the weaving.
So finally so-called embroidered textiles should be reconsidered IMO. But, as Embroidering is a very basic, ancient and home know-how, I would be stupid to say that it never existed in the whole roman world.

Yes, these are transfers which you go to a copyshop with. Last time I tried I took a sheet of light linen with me, and the results looked very good. It's of course not authentic, but the decorations are copies from authentic ones, which in my opinion gives a better impression than many other solutions.

Great ! Because there are several qualities and techniques of these papers. And even a light drawing could become a pattern for embroidering on the draws. However I guess we have to keep this way for very tight weaved cloths. Finally, you give me the idea that a stamp quickmaking set could be helpful.

Why is it too early?

I'm reenacting about year 500.
And, from the end of 5th century, the styles become more symbolic, with generally only two colours like the typical 5-6th c. red and white pieces from Saqqarah.
If you have 3 or more different colours, then you're closer to 3-4th c. objects generally (IMO this piece was in a child grave).

I'm still not impressed by many dating attempts. Is figurative decoration not meant to be 5th c. and later? I guess the experts differ in opinion.. If you doubt you can always say it cam from your grandpa's tunic..

I agree with you, archaeologists who gathered these pieces generally torn the clothes and did not care of studying neither who wore them nor to determine the most accurately as possible the date of the pieces. That's a pity to see on my 400 fragments pictures from museums nothing more accurate than 5-6th c. or 3-4th c. I'm not specialist of the question but some pieces can be regrouped, I would bet that they were made by the same guy, in a particular workshop. So you can anyways tighten the datation.
300 years is a bit long for a human life and more for a fashion. I'm waiting some articles about papyrus models in egyptian workshops. I hope, it will help to precize dating some models.

And no way to say this was an inheritage tunica. I't's a bit too easy :evil: !

Regards

[aitor iriarte]

Greg,

Why do you say that this fragment belongs to a tunic cuff? :? ?

Don't trust the datings mainly based on stylistic criteria. (The book 'Cothing Culture' is very elightening about that matter) For what I know, that fragment could belong to the sixth century too. It is already fairly schematized and yet colourful.

Aitor

[Graham Sumner]

Aitor wrote:

Why do you say that this fragment belongs to a tunic cuff? Cuffs were mostly double... That rather looks like a clavus...

Don't trust the datings mainly based on stylistic criteria. (The book 'Cothing Culture' is very elightening about that matter) For what I know, that fragment could belong to the sixth century too. It is already fairly schematized and yet colourful.

Welcome back Aitor, good to hear from you again.
I tend to agree with your points here. The textile fragment looks more like a later type to me as the earlier decorations are usually plain purple. There are now some C14 tests on textiles available.

As regards making your own versions of Coptic tunics I love Aitor's tunic by the outstandingly simple method of copying the original designs. Yes, as Robert observes it is not an authentic way of recreating them, in fact when you think about it, it is the least authentic method possible but for some reason it works and more importantly uses an original design. John Conyard's tunic has very well executed orbiculii but the original was in very dark, almost black, purple wool not bright red.

Graham.



Graham.

[Hugh Fuller]

Depeeka boots sell for $150 in this country

Only £55 for ours :wink:
http://www.armamentaria.com/store/index ... cccd50a40d

And may I say that they look a lot better, too!

Robert, could you specify what the problem is with the Depeeka boots. I compared their Low Boot to the ones that Peroni is selling and, now that Depeeka is apparently no longer putting tongues into them, I see very little difference. The sole on the Depeeka boots seems a bit thicker and they have hobnails on the toe area which Peroni's may or may not have and that seems to be it.

At the current exchange rate of a bit over 2 US dollars to the pound, Peroni's boots sell for $112.15 + shipping and international ordering costs.

[Bran ap Maclou]

Greg,

Why do you say that this fragment belongs to a tunic cuff? :? ?

Well, you're probably right but I can see several systems :

- Only one stripe on the sleeve (quite rare)
http://www.ciberupload.com/uploads/9191fa692c.jpg
Vienna MAK, 5-8th century

- Two stripes perhaps cut and sewn from an older clavus or anyway with the same pattern as the clavi like on this one
http://www.ciberupload.com/uploads/ae21e7348a.jpg
Vienna MAK, Panopolis 6-7th century
- Two stripes sticked together like here
http://www.ciberupload.com/uploads/d49ef4b056.jpg
Simply given as cuffs, 4-5th c. (quite doubtful !)
or this one
http://www.ciberupload.com/uploads/ae54b16a3d.jpg
Vienna MAK, Saqqara, 6-7th c.


So, to answer you (I know these fragments are very late), you are right but mostly is not only as you can see and this fragment can come from cuff or clavus, I don'tknow exactly where is this piece.

Don't trust the datings mainly based on stylistic criteria. (The book 'Cothing Culture' is very elightening about that matter) For what I know, that fragment could belong to the sixth century too. It is already fairly schematized and yet colourful.

Aitor

I agree with you but I think we can improve the situation.

Now something about Stellae, I found 4 different true stellae, 3 of them are purpura dyed. So I was told it was an imperial privilege and I'm quite surprised to see some of them found in a egyptian desert grave.

Last thing, these fragments come from clothes worn by the dead. So, IMO, they were the most beautiful clothes belonging to the dead, not especially clothes for every days. My position as reenactor, will be to have a very beautiful tunica for ceremonies and outside-garrison life and a most simple and strong tunica to wear under the armatura for exercice or fighting.

Regards

[John Conyard]

Thank you for the kind words about my tunic on the pic, but in fact that is my work tunic, designed to be worn under armour, sleeping in puddles etc. The original orbiculi were done in purple and tan, and are probably from a pair of curtains. The god Bacchus was really chosen as a joke. My current posh tunic is done with tapestry, while my favourite is excellent linen, made correctly in Egypt, but sadly uses patterns "in the style of" rather than actual copies of finds.

There are some various methods for reconstructing tunics on the Comitatus website. I tend to put material and method over accuracy of pattern. Frankly, I have no idea of the patterns used in Yorkshire.

But tunics always seem a compromise compared to other bits of kit.

[Robert Vermaat]

Well, you're probably right but I can see several systems :
- Only one stripe on the sleeve (quite rare)
http://www.ciberupload.com/uploads/9191fa692c.jpg
Vienna MAK, 5-8th century
- Two stripes perhaps cut and sewn from an older clavus or anyway with the same pattern as the clavi like on this one
http://www.ciberupload.com/uploads/ae21e7348a.jpg
Vienna MAK, Panopolis 6-7th century
- Two stripes sticked together like here
http://www.ciberupload.com/uploads/d49ef4b056.jpg
Simply given as cuffs, 4-5th c. (quite doubtful !)
or this one
http://www.ciberupload.com/uploads/ae54b16a3d.jpg
Vienna MAK, Saqqara, 6-7th c.

All 'forbidden' to me?

[Bran ap Maclou]

Ciberupload seems to do its housework, let's see tomorrow, if not, I repost from another hoster

Well, you're probably right but I can see several systems :
- Only one stripe on the sleeve (quite rare)

Vienna MAK, 5-8th century

- Two stripes perhaps cut and sewn from an older clavus or anyway with the same pattern as the clavi like on this one

Vienna MAK, Panopolis 6-7th century

[Bran ap Maclou]

- Two stripes sticked together like here

Simply given as cuffs, 4-5th c. (quite doubtful !)
or this one

Vienna MAK, Saqqara, 6-7th c.

Regards