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a new "historically correct movie" of Ridley Scott
#31
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The pilum is a javelin, pure and simple. It is by its very nature not much of a hand weapon, not surprising since it is not designed for that.<br>
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Thrown, it is a devastating weapon.<br>
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You may want to use somethin other than a Deepeeka retailer's on-line store as a reference to bolster your point.<br>
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<p>LEG IX HSPA - COH III EXPG - CEN I HIB<br>
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Adam MacDonald

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org">www.legio-ix-hispana.org
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#32
Agit...heheheheh. Don't use Deepeeka as a source man....they're after your money, not your scholarly advancement. Good call Scythius.<br>
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A good site on general information on the Roman Army online is Sander Van Dorst's site:<br>
[url=http://members.tripod.com/%7ES_van_Dorst/legio.html" target="top]here[/url]<br>
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For Roman equipment, go to Matt Amt's site:<br>
[url=http://www.larp.com/legioxx/index.html" target="top]here[/url]<br>
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Unfortunately, one of the better roman military tactics sites is down, and I'm not sure there is an in-depth look into Roman Combat as Garry Bruggeman's site. If it's up in the next while, I'll post the link (It's also in the link's section of Matt Amt's site).<br>
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For an english translation of an ancient writer, Tacitus, here is the link:<br>
[url=http://www.earth-history.com/Roman/roman-tacitus-main.htm" target="top]here[/url]<br>
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For a site on Roman Britain, with excellent info on the Roman army, check this one out:<br>
[url=http://www.morgue.demon.co.uk/Britannia.html" target="top]here[/url]<br>
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As for books, get A. Goldsworthy's "Roman Warfare". It's a good read, lots of pics and diagrams, and gives a good coverage of roman combat.<br>
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To answer your questions:<br>
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<em>i did spot auxileries on horse back guarding the flanks...</em><br>
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Where they auxilliaries, or were they legion cavalry? How can you tell which is which?<br>
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<em>also is there any evidence of the use of pilums as pikes?</em><br>
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No, not unless you go off the Deepeeka site. The pilum shaft itself wasn't designed to fend off charging infantry or cavalry. It had a long, 2 foot shaft of iron rod, made to bend. Not a 12 inch pike head designed to break charges.<br>
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<em>i think the main reason why they arnt thrown is that the germans are charging downhill..</em><br>
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See Hibernicus's post...<br>
<em><br>
also there is evidence the Byzantines had a type of napalm, so there is every reason why Aurelius didnt have every technology available at his disposal....he would have to use every gadget he could get his hands on...</em><br>
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There is? Do you realize the Byzantine Empire, if you want to acknowledge it's start date at the fall of the west, wasn't until hundreds of years after the reign of Marcus Aurelius. What makes you think they would have this technology. Secondly, it simply wasn't used in battlefield artillery. Sieges, sure. Where did you get this information from, can you quote sources on it which states "napalm" was available to the Romans at this period?<br>
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<em>the best time to throw pila is uphill??</em><br>
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The best time to throw pila is under charge by infantry, regardless if it's uphill, in rainy weather or sunny, on grass or on sand.That was the pila's sole purpose, to be thrown. It's evident not only in the scriptures, but on it's construction, where if compared to a spear or pike, you can see why.<br>
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Agit, read those sites, you'll soon see why Gladiator was appalling. <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>
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#33
Not to mention the artillery...<br>
I wouldn't mind to accept that one-armed stone-throwers were in use during Marcus' campaigns, event that some of them had baskets instead of slings, but...<br>
The artillery machines featured on Gladiator are totally unacceptable, you can make good-looking machines for a film that cannot hurl a tennis ball at ten paces but the problem is if your machines effectively look like if they are unable to hurl a tennis ball at ten paces! <br>
They could never have worked and they don't bear by far any possible resemblance to actual Roman machines<br>
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Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#34
The movie Spartacus gives a nice picture of a real roman battleline during the final battle! (just before it collapes into a huge melee.. )<br>
<p>Professionals built the Titanic, amateurs built the ark<br>
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Jeroen Pelgrom
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I would rather have fire storms of atmospheres than this cruel descent from a thousand years of dreams.
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#35
me:<br>
"would that be a realistic display of the armour of a Roman Legionaire from Marc Aurel's era?<br>
<picture> "<br>
<br>
TITUS SABATINUS AQUILIUS:<br>
"Except for the helmet and the shield."<br>
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But weren't oval shields already used by Legionaries at that time? And the helmet on that pic looks very much like one from a Museum in Munich (it's dated to the late 2nd century AD):<br>
home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/scan2.jpg<br>
(only the frontal reinforcement is lost)<br>
<p>---------------<br>
<br>
<img src="http://home.nexgo.de/berzelmayr/hadrian.gif"/> Est vita misero longa, felici brevis.<br>
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</p><i></i>
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#36
Quote:</em></strong><hr>also there is evidence the Byzantines had a type of napalm, so there is every reason why Aurelius didnt have every technology available at his disposal....he would have to use every gadget he could get his hands on...<hr><br>
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I'm too tired to look it up in my library, but if I remember correctly Greek fire was invented in the 7th century by a Byzantine from Syria. Too late to do Marcus Aurelius any good. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chariovalda>Chariovalda</A> at: 4/7/04 9:26 pm<br></i>
Andreas Baede
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#37
Oval shields I think were still only in use with auxilliaries. Wasn't the Dura shield dated to approximately the era of Gladiator?<br>
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That helm looks like an aux. inf. helm retrofitted with crossbars, not unlike the Itallic G is. It could very well have been worn by auxiliary infantry, not legionarys. Hard to tell who wore it. <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>
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#38
It sounds like Scott is more interested in PC than history. Why can't we be honest; the one professor had it right the templars weren't any badder than anyone else. There were atrocities on bothsides that was just part of medieval warfare. It might still be an interesting movie but I've given up on historical accuracy in cinema.<br>
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naso <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=naso@romanarmytalk>naso</A> at: 5/4/04 3:52 am<br></i>
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#39
Naso<br>
<br>
How can you say that you have given up on history in the cinema? You clearly haven't seen Demetrius and the Gladiators!<br>
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All the best <p>Graham Ashford
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#40
I hate to admit it Gashford but I have yet to see it I know its horrible on my part but one catch watch everything<br>
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They may surprise eventually and make a good and accurate ancient or medieval film but don't hold your breath Often I've noticed that movies with very accurate costuming are completely boring because they forgot the story. There are some exceptions that are pretty good historically and story wise but they're based on works of fiction set in historical context ( ie Master and commander, cold mountain, and last of the mohicans) I know that they have minor errors but all in all the most accurate films out there in recent history.<br>
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While movies based loosely on actual historic figures suck in regards to their authenticity even if it was a decent film, namely braveheart. I don't know how to classify gladiator I suppose its more like complete fiction but was a beautiful film visually despite its innaccuracy. I shall step off my soap box now<br>
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Naso <p></p><i></i>
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#41
Naso,<br>
<br>
"the templars weren't any badder than anyone else"<br>
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See the autoboography of the Muslim diplomat Usamah Ibn-Mundiqh (1095-118, who generally had nothing but contempt for the Franks:<br>
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"When I used to visit the… mosque, which was occupied by the Templars… who were my friends, the Templars would evacuate the little adjoining mosque so that I might pray in it. One day, I entered this mosque, repeated the first formula “Allah is greatâ€ÂÂ
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#42
Here are some pictures from the film -

http://www.latinoreview.com/films_2005/ ... n/koh.html

Liam Neeson looks suitably medieval, Orlando Bloom looks suitably decorative, and David Thewlis looks like Paul Gascoigne :lol:

The trailer features gouts of napalm, of course.

And why does it seem like films all look the same these days?
Nathan Ross
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#43
did he "recycle" this chanfron from Gladiator?
http://www.latinoreview.com/films_2005/ ... koh-20.jpg
:lol:
--- Marcus F. ---
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#44
I’d hesitate to draw too many conclusions about a movie that hasn’t been released yet based on an article published in the politically conservative Moony mouthpiece Washington Times (pulled directly from the politically conservative Torygraph…oops, sorry, Telegraph).

I did see a quick commercial for the film, made up of MTV-generation ultra-quick cuts, but from what I could tell the armor and equipment looked pretty accurate (I may regret these words later). In fact I was reminded, for some reason, of some of the more accurate Osprey publications. So maybe Scott is looking in the right places for once…

Then again, having just seen a few of the pictures, I hesitate… I don’t think European knights were using horse armor at all at that early date. And the guy with the metal face mask I thought was a Ghulam looks to actually be a Christian (the one riding the horse with the chanfron). Though if he's a Byzantine I'm REALLY impressed...

Napalm? Ugh…

Well, again, I’ll have to wait and see the film before passing judgment…

Gregg
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#45
Quote:Napalm? Ugh…

Naft. It isn't quite the same thing, but close enough. I just got my hands on a copy of the "Book of Fires" by Marcus Graecus, and his instructions, while cryptic, are interesting. It was even speculated by some that 12th and early 13th century naft included significant amounts of salpetre, turning it into something like a low explosive mixture. The 3rd crusade is slightly late, but such fire weapons were still used, if probably not in the quantities suggested by the opening scene of 'Gladiator'.
Der Kessel ist voll Bärks!

Volker Bach
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