Tunic lenght

[Tib. Gabinius]

I'm not a student of yours, but I am a working artist, and I question the whole idea of measuring the tunic against the hand.

Thats your good right and is i mentioned as i first compared, simple "relation" is problematic. It was just a simple help, in a full grade of argumentation which not only fill itself with the tombs and reliefs as well as other sources... (i think i nearly can sing it...).

If the legs are proportionally wrong against the rest of the body it doesn't matter, because as long as the proportions of lower leg against upper leg are roughly correct then the space between knee and tunic bottom should be estimated with that in mind.

I knew you would bring this.
Read me please complete, i told you IF anything is wrong, the proportion of the extremities would be more probelmatic in itself THAN parts of it like the hands... nothing more nothing less...
AND i mentioned that i dont believe, that the tombs show massive failures in proportion in the first centurie (with exceptions in some fabricae or willingly failrues like the sword pommel of one cologne equites tomb).

Which part of the tunic you measure to is a choice, but I prefer to take the whole thing and average it out, not just one part of it.

Erm, you recognized we just see parts of a curve?
So dont take the curved tunics of the first part first century than. Take trajanic frieses...and they show it like also aurels column... (the exact messurements of THAT can be read in the literatur i already mentured, there some scientiest did already).

Measuring using the hand is not the best way, simply because if there are proportion ... a direct relevance to the legs, not the hands, and if the legs are locally proportional then there is no reason to assume the positioning of the hem of the tunic would be wrong.

Thats the problem of all relations we take and that is the problem of tombs which often stilizised at all.
And (admins excuse me) thats why i god damn try to get your view to the hole f**** argument facts of ALL damn sources and workout.

Going back to this relief of soldiers in a marsh, even using your rule that the thigh ends at the hip, these tunics are clearly halfway up the thigh.

Yap, in this case i cant deny, the tunic is quite short and nearly half the tight.
1:100 till now. Evidence? I can show you some paintings of early roman fighters, which also have that short tunics. Evidence? Not at all. Even if you can reach a 1:10 relation of that showing tunics, youhave the other sources still present other things.
But i guess, thats not of interest...

And, if you're citing Quintilian as a source, I think it is he who specifically points out that a centurion's tunic is shorter than a civilian's, the latter reaching below the knee. Unfortunately he doesn't specify how much, but it was certainly enough to separate it from the way a civilian wore it. That reference casts serious doubt on depicting tunic length equivalent to a civilian's. I'll try to find the exact reference.

Yeah he did, and obviously IT IS SHORTER, thats not the point we discussing here...
He mention also the rules of mores, and they clearly said: those who show to much hit the mores and must be punished....

I'm not saying all tunics were like this. But I do disagree with your method of measurement.

My method of measurment? Its only a little help in a littel part of an argument line, which we spend a lot of attention cause you only spammed me with some examples of tombs where you wanted that i give you the evidence for, which i tried and tried.... but ok, i give it really up.
I' m clearly out.
If anyone is interested in learning i can explain where to get these literatur.

[Tib. Gabinius]

Very interesting, Tarbicus. This last relief shows something I could only guess at earlier. The upper right figure shows the tunic "hiked" up on the side. I had wondered at that, having some of the same concerns of Tobias; that it would be too scandleous.

That "hiked" is shown often and is similar to the "higher end" and the here discuessed half round tunic endings of the iulian-claudian dynastie.
I ve done my tunics like this also, as you can see here:

[Tarbicus]

I' m clearly out.
If anyone is interested in learning i can explain where to get these literatur.

Yes please.

thats not the point we discussing here...

But that's what I've been talking about. We're not communicating with each other, sorry I made you throw your dummy out of the pram, I'd appreciate the literature references so I can look at this without causing you to get so frustrated.

[Tarbicus]

To be a bit more scientific about the 1stC crescent shaped tunic.

Anatomically correct 3D cgi figure, posed to match Annaius Daverzus.

Assumption that he would be 5'8" tall (173cm).

hometown.aol.co.uk/Tarbicus/ann_dav_03b.jpg

[John M McDermott]

I would really like to hear both theories stated without as much passion. We may gain an insight into a Roman uniform manual that existed, but has been lost.

[Tarbicus]

Fair point. Apologies to all.

[Cacaius]

it looks like most of the fellows are wearing the military belt, how long would the tunic be if it was hanging free without a belt? hmmm? :?

I tried to make bigger tunica.
It is 150cm wide and 125 cm long.

And it works very good.

[John M McDermott]

Oh, Cacaius, how are those tunics with clavii coming?

[Cacaius]

Dear John

its not a topic for that ...
However what can I say.. I am really doing my best.
I am trying to make it faster .. calling to the old man weaver .. and people who where spininng threads for that before.

Its not a factory, if the weaver feels good he works ... if not .. he rest and watch tv

I hope to get this clavi in two weeks max .... I hope ... I hope

[John M McDermott]

Well, Ok, Cacaius.

[Tib. Gabinius]

I tried to find a trader, but it seems to be sold out.
But perhaps in Uk theres someone who have some or ask at the printing group.

"Die römische Tunika" von Matthias Pausch.
ISBN 3-89639-370-7
www.wissner.com

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3 ... 01-8847204

All other mentioned literatur you should get at a university library next to you.

Another, better available literatur is Marcus Junkelmann, "Die Legionen des Augustus" (which belows perfect to the here shown tombs of the first part 1st century), page 155 chapter "clothes", where ne, next to the lenght, declare, that an officer wouldnt wear the stil of of half circular tunic.

Adrian Goldsworthy, "the complete roman army", declares in chapter "the equipment of the legions", "...covered still the knees ..." (translated from the german version).
I guess this book should be available in uk in any case.

To get another impression of the ikonographical sources: "centuriones ad rhenum", written by Olivier Richier.

[Tarbicus]

Thanks for the references.

You may also want to look at Roman Clothing and Fashion, by A. T. Croom.
ISBN 0 7524 2512 9

In the section on underwear:
"It seems likely that people wearing short tunics, such as soldiers, wore underwear, while those in less danger of exposing themselves did not bother."

[Tib. Gabinius]

I know this book as well and dont see any evidence of the exact lenght, just of the subligar, which we didnt discussed here, and we didnt needed to.

But that leads to the subligacula of the gladiatores, which were sometimes that short and shorter, and you ll see a llot more of the leg, even if it should show just the half tight.

But you can compare "roman military clothing" which tell us a lot of foundings and their lenght, which are between 1,55 and 1,40m long, which is as much longer than the source of Catos "agricola" which seems around 1,6- 1,10, for workers, which, unbelted or not folted above the belt (like military), fall till the knees or above it, even at the "now living" 1,80 meter human.
Also there is tertullian mentioned, who tell us that the miliaries shortend their tunics, which ment in relation to civilian, if someone would took the whole part of this source.

And as i said all the times before, i ll stop now and here to argument, cause now i also offered a mass of literatur next to sources of all kind.
If still not convinced i guess i cant do anything more.

[Tarbicus]

See my PM. You read too much into the last post, I was only putting it there as I do believe the passage has some relevance in an indirect way.

In the English version of Goldsworthy, the part you quote is "above the knees", continuing to mention there seems to have been a fashion at some periods to pull the tunic up at the sides.

However, I'm going to shamble away and look into this whole subject in far more detail, then in good time I'll come back to this thread or another like it perhaps in a year or so.

You started the thread, stick with it, I'm sure there are others here to discuss the subject with.

[Robert Vermaat]

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