copper-alloy Type \'A\' sheath

[Crispvs]

Thanks Cesar,

That is probably the type I meant to describe.

Crispvs

[marcii ulpi messala]

Some Spanish examples

[img][/img]

[marcii ulpi messala]

Others

[img][/img]

[marcii ulpi messala]

more

[img]<a%20href="http://photobucket.com/"%20target="_blank"><img%20src="http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/6166/cuchillosdobleglobulares3.jpg"%20border="0"%20alt="Photobucket%20-%20Video%20and%20Image%20Hosting">[/img]

[marcii ulpi messala]

pardon

[img]<a%20href="http://photobucket.com/"%20target="_blank"><img%20src="http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/6166/cuchillosdobleglobulares3.jpg"%20border="0"%20alt="Photobucket%20-%20Video%20and%20Image%20Hosting">[/img]

[marcii ulpi messala]

[img][/img]

[LVCIVS VVLPES]

thanks Gabriel,
for posting those pictures

Crispvs,Peronis
I will see if I find the time tomorrow to post some more pictures of the sheath with the iron gutters

Luc

[LVCIVS VVLPES]

for the Nijmegen sheath, I am still waiting for info

for the Spanish sheath, the only info i have is "From Spain"

Crispvs --I agree that this is somewhat confusing and had previously led me to suspect that this particular sheath had been subject to some uninformed restoration in the past. However, now that I realize that it is a type 'B' plate attached to side gutters (or possibly a complete frame) the possibility exists that it may have possessed type 'B' suspension as there does not seem to be any evidence of suspension loops under the rivet heads. How type 'B' suspension would be attached though I am not sure. Again, I would have to see the piece myself. I wonder if Lvcivs has any other pictures from other angles which might help. Slits in the sides of the guttering are a possibility, although I do not know of a roman example of that technique. The pairs of rivets, rather than groups of three or four, are interesting and could potentially have supported either type of suspension. Of course, if it is a combination of two separate sheaths then the remains of the suspension loops for type 'A' suspension might be in their original positions on the frame and might be hidden by the type 'B' plate. I need to know more about both of these sheaths!


here an extra picture, and as you see, there is no marks or whatsoever of suspension loops, only a front plate and a back plate with gutters

[img]

Luc

[/img]

[LVCIVS VVLPES]

what do I have to do to close the (quote) :?: :?:


some more of the Spanish sheath
[img]

[/img]

Cheers
Luc

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Thanks, Luc. Laus for you.

I think the iron guttering it's original.

To quote you hve to select a text and get the quote. It marks all the post. Delete what do you don't want, and write. The text quoted are between two words quote, that marks the beginning and the end of the quote. So, if you write before the second, the computer gets your writing as part of the quote. Have i explain it comprensible?

[Crispvs]

Luc,

A laud point from me too. Thanks for the extra pictures.
Now that I can see the sides of the guttering I can still see no way of attaching it to a belt. This leaves two possibilities that I can see: either A) it was tucked into a belt or sash and then held there by pressure alone or B) that there is some sort of attachment loop or button on the back.

Gabriel

Thanks for the pictures of the other Spanish daggers. A laud point to you as well.
In your post of 20:21 yesterday, are those computer reconstuctions of the two handles or is it a re-coloured photo of the actual condition of the pieces?

Crispvs

[LVCIVS VVLPES]

thanks Cesar,

Cheers
Luc

[marcii ulpi messala]

Crispvs, Only the color of the nielado has been reinforced in silver and original gold of the hilt. Saludos.

[zugislander]

I am no expert on these matters, but interested in learning. So I ask you all to bear with me as I attempt to investigate and understand the scabbard's construction better.

In looking at the pictures of this scabbard it seems odd to me that at the pointed end of the scabbard there appears to be rust going all the way around the "copper alloy" sheath. Meanwhile at the open end of the scabbard it appears that the iron oxide is simply the remains of gutters on the sides. Midway, it appears that there is considerably more rust that would remain from simply gutters.

Is it possible that this scabbard was a "copper alloy" interior and an iron exterior shell? That would acount for the extraneous iron oxide especially at the narrow end and in the middle. I understand that this is not the standard construction, but is it possible that this was this scabbard's construction?

If I am misinterpreting what I am seeing I would appreciate any pointers for interpreting the data of these pictures?

Thanks inadvance for sharing any of your expertise and insights.

Cordially,

Michael Broyles

[Crispvs]

Thanks for your question Michael. The amount of rust on the outside of the sheath puzzles me somewhat too, but I do not see any real reason why this should not be normal iron oxide expansion within a confined space. Unfortunately I do not have a background in chemistry which would tell me whether or not rust would expand sideways if there was insufficient space to continue to expand upwards. There may be others here who can answer that aspect of your question better.
As to the original form of the sheath, it appears to be constructed in the normal way for type 'A' sheaths, which consist of a front plat and a back plate which both curve round at the sides so that when placed together the sides overlap. The two halves are secured to each other by the rivets which also attach the suspension loops, as well as the rivet which passes through the terminal expansion. There would be no need for side gutters. I think that the iron we are seeing along the edges of the sheath is rust from the iron blade which has expanded out through gaps between the copper-alloy front and back plates. The sheath would not have a pointed end as such either, as all Roman dagger sheaths appear to have ended in a circular expansion (known as a terminal expansion) which has often either broken off or which was originally present as a separate piece of metal, such as the sheath from Melun in France. Although I cannot see anything I can definitely identify as one in the photos of this sheath, there would normally be a rivet through the centre of the terminal expansion and I wonder whether the rust we appear to be seeing on the terminal expansion might be yet more rust from the blade expanding out through the hole where the terminal rivet has been lost.
Regarding your suggestion of an iron skin over a copper-alloy inner, this would not be in line with normal Roman practice, which was to put decorative copper-alloy skins over iron objects such as cavalry helmets rather than the other way around. At present there is no evidence which I am aware of for decorative metal plates or skins covering the front plates of dagger sheaths. Decoration is normally in the form of inlaid silver, copper-alloy, niello and coloured enamel.

Sorry to burst the bubble somewhat but bearing in mind that there is no such thing as a stupid question, keep it up and we will all do our best to give you sensible informative answers.

Regards

Crispvs