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Ammianus mentions for 353 that the Comes (et dux) et praeses Isauriae, Castricius, fortified himself in Seleucia with his three battle-proven legions, in which Hoffmann sees I, II and III Isaurae: (AM XIV.14.24).
Hoffmann remarks that only I Isaurae was raised to pseudocomitatenses status, not II and III Isaurae.
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Quote:II Flavia Virtutis (was) at Bezabde in 360
Is that the same as II Flavia Gemina? Hoffmann saw that one at Bezabde in 360. He interprets Ammianus' I and II Flavia as the I and II Flavia Gemina from the Notitia Dignitatum
All the legions mentioned here are supposed to have taken part in Julian's campaign of 363.
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Daniele, thanks for that comprehensive list. I note that 'crested helms' feature several times in Ammianus, which was my main inspiration to create a crest attachment for a ridge helm: http://www.geocities.com/zozergames/roman8.html (apologies for poor photographs!).
Robert, I understand the I Isaurians were psuedocomitatensis and part of the Eastern Field ARmy, my understanding is that II, and III were limitanei. Their proximity suggests to me their involvement. I would like to imagine them as very tough skirmishers, especially skilled in mountain warfare and harrassment tactics as described in Mauricius (considering the nature of their tough opponents in the mountains of Cilicia!)
~ Paul Elliott
The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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Quote:Robert, I understand the I Isaurians were psuedocomitatensis and part of the Eastern Field ARmy, my understanding is that II, and III were limitanei. Their proximity suggests to me their involvement. I would like to imagine them as very tough skirmishers, especially skilled in mountain warfare and harrassment tactics as described in Mauricius (considering the nature of their tough opponents in the mountains of Cilicia!)
Indeed, they were left to be limitanei when I Isaurae was upgraded.
I can add to Daniele's list:
Ioviani and Herculiani: AM XXV.6.2,3 and Zos III..30.2,3 (the battle near Sumere after Julians death in June 363, when the Ioviani & Herculiani, Iovii & Victores, fight hard against Persian elephants and cataphracts).
Bracchiati and Cornuti: they were already sent to Constantine II earlier.
Scholae Scutariorum I and Scholae Scutariorum II: AM XXII.11.2 (winter 362/3 in Antioch) and AM XXV.10.9 (Vitalianus is made their commander at Tyana, late fall 363. Zos III.29.3 (both Prima and Secunda are mentioned in a battle immediately after Julian's death). AM XXVI.1.4 (february 364; Equitius, commander of the Prima, is seen as candidate after Jovian dies).
Batavi and Eruli: AM XXV.10.9 (Vitalianus of the Eruli again, see above).
Celtae and Petulantes: AM XXII.12.6 (both units at Antioch with Julian, 362-3).
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I have a list of around 15 regiments that I could find attributed to Ammianus and marching with him, and you have both covered those and doubled the count!
I did catch reference to V Parthica, XXX Legion and X Fortensis at Amida in 360, but from memory of my last reading I think when Amida fell they were all captured.
~ Paul Elliott
The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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Quote:you have both covered those and doubled the count!
My pleasure. It took me a few hours study though. :wink:
There's probably a dozen more units that we can 'implicate', since they were included in (what Hoffmann sees as) the big 'partition' of the Roman Field army units in the summer of 364 at Naissus, when Valens and Valentinianus split most units into seniores and iuniores. We can find several units that were not present, and therefore not partitioned (units in Africa, Gaul, Spain, Britain), or partitioned later. Some unit were only created as iuniores resp. seniores, but also later. Some cavlry units, esp. the armoured cavalry, may not have been split up at all.
There are several units that almost surely went with Julian from Gaul, but since they are not mentioned anywhere, we simply can't be sure if they went back to Gaul, remained in Europe or indeed went to Persia. 
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And that's not all! 
At Amida under the command of Aelianus comes rei militaris (killed after the fall of the city)were too:
Tricesimani,Decimani, Fortenses, Superuentores and Praeuentores,
several uexillationes palatinae et comitatenses of Comites sagittarii. And also the Equites sagittarii indigenae arabanenses, after Amida, garrisoned at Mefana-Cartha.
The Legio Duodecima Fulminata (the old Legio XII Fulminata Galliena), was stationed at Miletene (modern Malatia in Turkey) after the time of Septimius Severus, and where it was still stationed according to the Notitia. So it could be with Iulianus too.
The Legio I Pontica was based at that time in Trebizond (modern Trabzon in Turkey) on the Black Sea, so, likely, it would also be with Iulianus in Persia.
As well maybe there were some Laeti units too.
Tertiaci cavalry unit was punished and disbanded during the Persian campaign by Iulianus for cowardice. Ammianus XXV 1,7
And then there were some units of Cataphractarii too
Robert wrote:
Quote:Is that the same as II Flavia Gemina? Hoffmann saw that one at Bezabde in 360. He interprets Ammianus' I and II Flavia as the I and II Flavia Gemina from the Notitia Dignitatum
Yes it is.
A note more:
The Mattiarii, Lancearii, Victores - Zosimus III-22 were awarded by the Corona obsidionalis for the Maiozamalcha tunnelling operation.
Ammianus XXIV,3, 10-27
Zosimus III 19,22
Libanius cit. 232-243
Klotz cit.489 ss
Seek, RE at "Sapor", 2347, 9-42
So if anyone wants to re-enact them has to put the crown on the standards...
Valete,
TITVS/Daniele Sabatini
... Tu modo nascenti puero, quo ferrea primum
desinet ac toto surget Gens Aurea mundo,
casta faue Lucina; tuus iam regnat Apollo ...
Vergilius, Bucolicae, ecloga IV, 4-10
![[Image: PRIMANI_ban2.gif]](http://web.tiscali.it/iulianevivas/PRIMANI_ban2.gif)
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Ha, Daniele - cool! My translation of Ammianus refers to Scouts, Skirmishers and so on rather than the more exact military terminology of Superventores etc. Frustrating. In fact it has several sections missing which is frustrating. I need an unabridged copy of Ammianus.
Which do you both use?
~ Paul Elliott
The Last Legionary
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I use an italian translation of Ammianus' Res Gestae, fantastically annotated about the military subject (no latin text although, ISBN 88-18-16005-9), and I also use the many latin texts online to know exactly what Ammianus tells, especially for the emperors adlocutiones full of symbolic meanings, and for the classical speech structure. But also a Zosimus' very good italian translation too.
You could also read Julian's life by Joseph Bidez, who annoted it after a deep study about all the known sources mentioning Julian.
Anyway, Robert can suggest books better than me about the subject.
BTW, very cool your crested helmet and its correct attaching way.
You know, we often forget that feathers shine at the Sunlight too, not only metal does it...!
Vale,
TITVS/Daniele Sabatini
... Tu modo nascenti puero, quo ferrea primum
desinet ac toto surget Gens Aurea mundo,
casta faue Lucina; tuus iam regnat Apollo ...
Vergilius, Bucolicae, ecloga IV, 4-10
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Oh of course, I was forgetting your Primani signature, with black feather crest on a ridge helm!!
~ Paul Elliott
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Thanks Daniele!
Quote: At Amida under the command of Aelianus comes rei militaris (killed after the fall of the city)were too:
Tricesimani, Decimani, Fortenses, Superuentores and Praeuentores,
several uexillationes palatinae et comitatenses of Comites sagittarii.
Yes, but did any unit come out of disaster strong enough to be reformed? Or did all the units go under then and there? It sounded much like a sort of Late Roman Stalingrad...
Quote:And then there were some units of Cataphractarii too
Yes, Hoffmann mentions several of them, unsure which were with Julian and which weren't. I'll make a list.
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Good!
Valete,
TITVS/Daniele Sabatini
... Tu modo nascenti puero, quo ferrea primum
desinet ac toto surget Gens Aurea mundo,
casta faue Lucina; tuus iam regnat Apollo ...
Vergilius, Bucolicae, ecloga IV, 4-10
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I really appreciate the work of Hoffmann, but one has to use it VERY carefully.
First, Robert,
Robert worte:
Quote:Batavi and Eruli: AM XXV.10.9 (Vitalianus of the Eruli again, see above)
I'd say from Zosimus and Ammianus we can conclude that the Batavi-Eruli were definitely NOT in Persia but stayed behind in Gallia.
Zos. 3.35.2: in summer 363, one of the first tasks of new emperor Jovian is to secure the troops in Gaul. Therefore he sends men to them who could achieve that:
Jovian now turning his attention to the affairs of government, made
various arrangements, and sent Lucilianus his father-in-law, Procopius, and Valentinian, who was afterwards emperor, to the armic.s in Pannoriia, to inform them of the death of Julian, and of his being chosen emperor. The Batavians who were at Sirmium, and were left there for its protection, as soon as they received the news, put to death Lucilianus who brought such unwelcome intelligence, without regard to his relationship to the emperor. Such was the respect they had to Jovian's relations, that Valentinian himself only escaped from the death they intended to inflict on him. Jovianus proceeding from Antioch towards Constantinople, ...
Hoffmann denies that evidence because of Zosimus mentioning Sirmium instead of Reims, where according to Ammian (AM 25.10.6-7) the rebellion took place.
The Vitalianus of the Eruli, promoted into Jovians guards in late autumn 363, IMHO also implies the Eruli beeing stationed in Gaul before that time. The reason: Ammianus mentions this episode when he speaks of the return of Valentinan from his mission in Gaul (see above), together with officers (I would say of the in Gaul stationed units) who should show their allegiance to Jovian.
But the real big problem with Hoffmann is his assumption, that the partition in seniores-iuniores took place in 365, and that all seniores originally were sent west and all iuniores east. That is proven wrong, at least one partitioned unit mentioned in 356 AND it being a seniores in the east (A Fourth-Century Latin Soldier's Epitaph at Nakolea, Thomas Drew-Bear, Harvard Studies in Classical Philology, Vol. 81, 1977 (1977), pp. 257-274). So all theories of Hoffmann regarding when and where a later seniores/iuniores unit could have been in the past are no longer valid.
Regards,
Jens Wucherpfennig
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Hello Jens,
Shall we start a new thread about Hoffmann? You're the first one I can really discuss that with - I'm not so sceptical about him.
About this thread - I'll discuss the Batavi-Eruli later, but the rest of my list are all attested by Ammianus or others, and the supposed (or not) Army Partition of 365 has no bearing on them.
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Hi Jens, I've removed the Heruli and Batavi from my 'Big Hypothetical List of Units'.
This is it so far, grouped (as far as I can tell ... I'm sure there are errors) into the army lists given in the Notitia Dignitatum. Obviously, these being AD 395-420 the regiments may have belonged to very different army groups in 360AD. But its a start!
[size=150:1781qktv]Big Hypothetical List of Units [/size](of Julian’s Persian Regiments, With Probable Army Affliations as Listed in the Notitia Dignitatum)
Eastern Field Army
I ARMENIACA - Claudiopolis (Cappadocia - Armenia II), till 359 AD.
EQUITES TERTIACI - cavalry unit
II ARMENIACA
Magister Officiorum
SCHOLAE SCUTARIORUM I
SCHOLAE SCUTARIORUM II - Vitalianus is made their commander at Tyana, late fall 363. Both Prima and Secunda are mentioned in a battle immediately after Julian's death. Equitius, commander of the Prima, is seen as candidate after Jovian dies.
Italian Field Army
IOVIANI (SENIORES??)
HERCULIANI
CORNUTI
BRACHIATES
PETULANTES
CELTAE
MATTIARI
IOVII
VICTORES
CORNUTI
SUPERVENTORES ?? Originally from Gallic army?
All accompanied Julian, and joined the Praesentalis army for the campaign.
Praesentalis Army
CORNUTI - sent to Constantine, earlier
MATTIARII
LANCEARII
EQUITES CATAPHRACTARII ?? several unitsi
HERCULIANI
BRACCHIATI
VICTORES
BATAVI
IOVIANI
FORTENSES (Comes Hispaniensis??)
Dux Syriae
??LEGIO XVI FLAVIAE FIRMAE - Samosata
??LEGIO IIII SCYTHICA - Zeugma (3rdC) or Sura (ND)
Other units given in this thread I have on a reserve list, but cannot place into any army group. This is the reserve list:
ZIANNI
II FLAVIA VIRTUTIS
CANDIDATI
GENTILES
II FLAVIA GEMINA - At Bezabde in 360. He interprets Ammianus' I and II Flavia as the I and II Flavia Gemina from the Notitia Dignitatum
LEGIO I PONTICA - based at that time in Trebizond (modern Trabzon in Turkey) on the Black Sea
TRICESIMANI
DECIMANI
PRAEVENTORES
several vexillationes palatinae et comitatenses of Comites sagittarii
~ Paul Elliott
The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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