Roman Sword ??

[caiusbeerquitius]

Is there ametallurgical analysis for this sword?

Would probably solve the problem.

[Cornelius Quintus]

Is there ametallurgical analysis for this sword?

Would probably solve the problem.

Ave,

somewhere above, Steve mentioned, that there were no metallurgical analyses available then.

You are right – already a close X-ray look at the sword or other kinds of analysis could reveal more than our very own eyes will do. (And even then, not all)

Are blade and guard of the same alloy, forged the same style? And the pommel, too?
Are there hints to a later addition of the Pommel by repair for example?
Is the alloy matching to that period (or are there traces of modern ingredients)?

I remember the impressive X-ray photos of some Viking swords (found and now being exhibited not far away from my home), published by Alfred Geibig: ‘Ausgrabungen in Haithabu. Das archäologische Fundmaterial VI’ which clearly featured the different parts of the hilts ‘from the inside.’

Analysis is possible, but no duty. All that depends on the owner’s intention. A Scientist, who wants to publish an important find to the last detail or a public prosecutor, convicting a gang of international fakers will examine it to a different level than a private collector, who feels being content with his acquisition and wants to discuss and enjoy it.

Greetings from Germany

Heiko (Cornelius Quintus)

[stevesarak]

All that depends on the owner’s intention.

Heiko (Cornelius Quintus)

My intent was not to prove to others the authenticity of this sword, only to reaffirm what the exports have told me. I first posted a question of the sword on a different forum (That was before I knew that RAT existed), trying to find some of my own proof before I bought it. It was someone else that posted it here. I only continued it because someone here guessed its place of origin and I wanted to find out what they might know of it. I continue it now, trying to lay to rest my last remaining doubts.

Being that’s its not a conventional Roman sword, I will always have my doubts about it, so I welcome discussion for the sake of discussion.

Now I might be mistaken, but I thought an x-ray won’t work with metal on metal.

Now that I own the sword there’s no longer a great need to have a metallurgical analysis done, but I have thought about. Unfortunately, I don’t know much about them. Here in California where can I get it done? Can it be done without damaging any part of the sword? Do I have to leave the sword? Etc.

Again I don’t want to discourage any discussion on it. If you agree or disagree with it being Roman please voice your opinion and why?

[Tarbicus]

Putting aside found examples of Roman swords, does anyone recognise anything similar to it from sculptural evidence?

Are there any very unusual sword elements that just don't fit with the evidence, and would have the authenticity officer borrowing the centurio's vine stick if you turned up with such a sword attached to your baldric?

Some highly suspect suspects:

www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,165/Itemid,94/

www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,99/Itemid,94/

[Cornelius Quintus]

Now I might be mistaken, but I thought an x-ray won’t work with metal on metal.

Now that I own the sword there’s no longer a great need to have a metallurgical analysis done, but I have thought about. Unfortunately, I don’t know much about them. Here in California where can I get it done? Can it be done without damaging any part of the sword? Do I have to leave the sword? Etc.

Ave Steve,

x-ray works on metal, too. But there might be better methods to examine it without harm to it’s substance. (Pictures for pommel-fans )

http://www.onlinepictures.de/2/?img=Vsx1733f2355jpg.jpg
http://www.onlinepictures.de/2/?img=VSx3b4dcb9fejpg.jpg

Old Europe has the advantage, special museums or scientist being somewhat ‘in the neighbourhood’, as the Roman or medieval excavation sites are, too. In the USA, there might be collectors or museums, skilled in that kind of research. But I doubt it will be worthwhile the risk to give the sword out of your hands or send it on another long distance journey.

Greetings from Germany

Heiko (Cornelius Quintus)

[Tarbicus]

Perhaps something like this?:
[url:2am408xq]http://www.canterburytrust.co.uk/xray01.htm[/url]

Maybe this one in California?:
[url:2am408xq]http://www.swxrflab.net/labfees.htm[/url]

[Sassanid]

The Lyon guard is in my opinion different. I have enclosed a picture of one interpretation of it. Picture copyright of Andrew Walpole

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y102/S ... YONGRD.jpg

On ring pommel swords - yes indeed, the pommel in many cases was an integral part of the actual sword.

Andrew

[Tarbicus]

Thanks Andrew. That throws that one out.

There's a piece here on myarmoury.com by Kirk Lee Spencer:
www.myarmoury.com/review_cerv_vik.html

Typical double-edged Viking swords are believed to have developed from Celtic swords by way of the Roman cavalry spatha. Because the Roman spatha design developed in a society with a clear division of labor, it would not only serve well at its intended purpose, but would quickly identify the position and status of its bearer. As the Roman Empire melted away at the edges, the barbarian petty kings adopted the prestige of the spatha design. During this time, the design of European swords followed other changes in contemporary art. Barbarian decoration began to appear upon older Roman forms. The relatively narrow lens or octagonal cross-section of the spatha blade widened and developed shallow fullers. The hilt components also changed: hourglass shaped hilts with silver plating over organic cores changed to more simple organic grips. The upper and lower guards became more distinct and were formed by riveting together layers of metal and organic material. On the upper guard of these "sandwich"-type hilts appeared decorative caps covering the peened end of the tang.

The Viking sword appears in the archeological record with the enlargement of these "pommel caps" and the uniting of the sandwiched components into solid upper and lower guards. As a matter of fact, the earliest solid guards even have false rivet heads decorating them.

Worth tucking away I suppose for future reference.

But Steve's sword is too short for a Viking sword, and has even been expertly dated to the start of the 1st C AD.

Something about this line from a review of a Patric Barta Sutton Hoo sword strikes a chord for some reason:

There is a Lomabardic sword found in grave 32 in Nocera Umbra, Italy that has four hilt clips that are so similar in technique to the ones on the Sutton Hoo that they are both likely to have been made by the same maker.

[url:26zkqwgd]http://www.myarmoury.com/review_tmpl_suthoo.html[/url]

[stevesarak]

The x-rays of the pommels are amazing. I didn't realize you could still get such a clear picture.

Shipping out the sword to the UK or anywhere else is definitely out of the question. I once sent a computer through the mail and made the mistake of writing fragile on it. The person that received it said it looked like someone had slam-dunked it to the ground. Plus the chance of it getting lost, even if the insurance replaced the cost; couldn’t replace the value to me.

Even Berkley is two far, I live in southern California, that would be about a 14 hour round trip. But thanks for the ideas; after listening to you I realized that I could always try calling the head of the Los Angeles Museum of History, its only about 40 minutes away. If that person couldn’t help, they might be able to direct me to someone that could.

[stevesarak]

Jim, I have to ask.
Is the armor your little soldier wearing a full sized piece and either antiqued or painted?

[Tarbicus]

Jim, I have to ask.
Is the armor your little soldier wearing a full sized piece and either antiqued or painted?

I took some liberties with a painting I did of a 1st C legionary, currently on a RAT t-shirt to make my avatar scarier
[url:3afwva30]http://hometown.aol.co.uk/Jimmy5191/Virtus_solo.jpg[/url]

[stevesarak]

Jim, I have to ask.
Is the armor your little soldier wearing a full sized piece and either antiqued or painted?

I took some liberties with a painting I did of a 1st C legionary, currently on a RAT t-shirt to make my avatar scarier
[url:1ll6dvja]http://hometown.aol.co.uk/Jimmy5191/Virtus_solo.jpg[/url]

You painted that hock: Thats good, did you use a computer or paint? Do you have other works that we can look at?

[Tarbicus]

Cheers Steve. 3D cgi, and lots and lots of cg paintwork on top (I hate 3D modelling).

[stevesarak]

Ave,

and perhaps the proud owner is the only one, who can give a hint to the sword's point of balance?

The somewhat heavy hilt furniture (metal, not wood), I rather would have expected to a longer blade. But looking at a photograph is not the same as holding it in your very own hands.

Due to the overall fine condition of the sword, the balancing might still today indicate the style of using it?

Greetings from Germany

Heiko (Cornelius Quintus)

Here's the balance point I said I would get. Keep in mind that it’s missing its grip and a lot of metal from the corrosion of the blade.

[stevesarak]

I don't know what's wrong with the picture above, if you click on it it will open.