Late Roman Tunics - A persian borrowing?

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

Hey, more questions from me i'm afraid.

Firstly, what does Salvete Omnes mean? I have always wanted to begin a topic with something other than Hey Guys, or at least something more appropriate lol. Any other latin derived forms of saying Hi/Hail/Etc I could use?

Anyway, I have once more tried searching the forum for info on late roman tunics, but I mostly get random topics that have nothing to do with the query - perhaps I am using the search function incorrectly.

So, heres the question(s).

Why did the romans eventually decide to 'abandon' or at least supplant the normally dyed tunics with no patterns on them for the more colourful and patterned/embroidered versions we see the late roman soldiers wearing?

Was it just fashion evolving, as it does today, was it more money available to soldiers enabling them to buy better/nicer looking tunics, a change in the spartan/humble military tradition to a more 'relaxed' 'shiny and fancy' looking army, or a combination of the above?

Also, I am wondering. Did they borrow the idea from the revived 'persian' empire under the Parthians and then the Sassanid empire? I ask because the persians have been wearing beautifully coloured/embroidered/patterned tunics since the times of Darius and Xerxes and so on.

For now I think that is it.

Yuri

PS: Oh, and an unrelated question. During the late 3rd and throughout the 4th centuries, would there still be any 'hardcore' conservatives (for lack of a better word) worshippers of Jupiter Optimus Maximus or would this worship have long dissapeared in favour of catholicism, sol invictus, mithras and so on?

Would there still be groups in the army worshipping this old military style deity or not?

[Jona Lendering]

During the late 3rd and throughout the 4th centuries, would there still be any 'hardcore' conservatives (for lack of a better word) worshippers of Jupiter Optimus Maximus or would this worship have long dissapeared in favour of catholicism, sol invictus, mithras and so on?

There were many die-hards. The emperor Eugenius was one of them; in literary circles, think of Symmachus, Ammianus Marcellinus, and the author of the Histioria Augusta.

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

Flavius Eugenius (d. September 6, 394) was a Roman usurper (392-394) against Emperor Theodosius I. Though himself a Christian, he was the last Emperor to support Roman polytheism.

Theodosius then moved from Constantinople with his army, and met Eugenius and Arbogast in the Battle of the Frigidus (on the modern Italy-Slovenia border) on September 6, 394. The bloody battle lasted two days, and was marked by unusual astronomical and meteorological events, but in the end Theodosius won.

Interesting. Perhaps the Gods were having a little battle or their own in the heavens to decide who would be the romans favoured deity.

[Robert Vermaat]

Why did the romans eventually decide to 'abandon' or at least supplant the normally dyed tunics with no patterns on them for the more colourful and patterned/embroidered versions we see the late roman soldiers wearing?

Was it just fashion evolving, as it does today, was it more money available to soldiers enabling them to buy better/nicer looking tunics, a change in the spartan/humble military tradition to a more 'relaxed' 'shiny and fancy' looking army, or a combination of the above?

Also, I am wondering. Did they borrow the idea from the revived 'persian' empire under the Parthians and then the Sassanid empire? I ask because the persians have been wearing beautifully coloured/embroidered/patterned tunics since the times of Darius and Xerxes and so on.

I think it's fashion. You see Germanic trousers becoming fashionable during the same period.
I'm not sure the originals were Persian though. The basic style is changing during the Roman period, but the basic style does not alter very much. yet we don't see that style in Persian examples - so either the Romans introduced persian tunics but changed the basic style from the very beginning, or the originals lie eslewhere, maybe in Egypt.

The Persians also wore trousers (as did Scythians, Parthians and other indo-European peoples), but these embroidered styles were not copied by the Romans, either.

[Urselius]

Salvete Omnes means "hail to all," ciao a tutti would be the modern Italian equivalent, and salve was used, like ciao, for hello and goodbye.

[Urselius]

Diocletian identified himself with Jupiter and his co-emperor Maximian identified with Hercules. Julian the Apostate made huge public sacrifices to Jupiter and Mars.

In particular Christianity was largely an urban religion in the Late Roman period. It is no coincidence that the word pagan derives from the Latin 'pagenses' meaning countryfolk (rustics). In the countryside pagan practices long outlasted those in the towns and cities. As late as c. 450 AD archaeology has shown that the bodies of neonates and aborted foetuses were buried with puppies (a sacrifice to Hecate) in central Italy, an ostensibly Christian area.

[Graham Sumner]

Hi Yuri

You should read my Roman Military Clothing 2 and in particular Roman Military Clothing 3 by Raffaele D'Amato both easily available from Osprey books.

These should answer your questions regarding influences on Roman costume from beyond the imperial frontiers. The frontier zone was a huge melting pot of ideas and it is often diffucult to understand who is copying who!

The idea of decorating tunics seems to have come from the East, one of the earliest examples is from Palmyra (See Aitor Iriarte's tunic).
The long sleeved tunic and trousers look Germanic but the Persians also wore garments like this too. The Romans copied the style then added their own type of decoration or rather classical motifs which in turn were then copied by the peoples beyond the frontier. So by the time we get to the famous image of Stilicho, himself the son of a Vandal, we might see him dressed as a typical Barbarian. However he was wearing what would then have been seen as typical Roman dress. Nevertheless even at that date we still find echoes of a traditional conservative attitude. When a wave of anti German feeling swept through the court of Honorius he attempted to ban the wearing of trousers.

A group of late Roman officers were found buried in Egypt wearing Persian style Riding coats / tunics of a type that probably originated on the steppes, trousers and leggings decorated in Persian style. The men themselves had Greek names and carried Crucifixes. This should give you an idea of what a late 'Roman' was like.

Graham.

[Salvianus]

During the late 3rd and throughout the 4th centuries, would there still be any 'hardcore' conservatives (for lack of a better word) worshippers of Jupiter Optimus Maximus or would this worship have long dissapeared in favour of catholicism, sol invictus, mithras and so on?

Would there still be groups in the army worshipping this old military style deity or not?

Interesting question :-) ) Obviously, the mix changed considerably over that period.

According to Vegetius, by the end of the 4thC legionaries now swore the sacramentum military oath by the Christian Trinitarian formula perhaps causing some potential problems for earnest 'pagans' but I believe it wasn’t until the codes of 415 A.D. that pagans were specifically banned from service simply for their belief and presumably such a ban would be unenforceable.

By the year 400 A.D., pagan worship had been illegal for eight years, presumably discouraging open display in camp, but not really affecting the committed: I don't know off-hand of any evidence of enforcement on troops .

So it seems there were practising non-Christians in the army, but to what extent they followed Jupiter specifically I am not sure: I understood other deities, particularly Hercules, to be in the ascendant.

A quick leaf through the old bookshelf:

Potter & Johns (Roman Britain 1992) mention Victory and Mars as being popular with British soldiers, along with Bonus Eventus and Fortuna, with Bachic imagery being strongly represented in the late 4thC.

Ann Woodward's Shrines & Sacrifice '92 includes a comparison of deity depictions in 10 sample locations as leading with Mercury, then Venus, Hercules, Mars, Minerva, Apollo, Cupid and Bacchus, then Jupiter.

Salway 1993 seems to suggest that Diocletian's emphasis on Jupiter & Hercules was more a political campaign and reminds us that they were, even 'originally', Greek imports to the Romans, whereas the personal worship of lares and an outlook to animism might be seen as more intrinsic and sustained and seem to match well the genii cucullati and small votive objects of British forts etc.

I understand a find in Catterick suggests a 4thC devotee of Cybele, but I wouldn't recommend a fully authentic approach to reconstructive re-enactment there!

Hope that helps for now, Yuri, cheers

[Nerva]

Salvete Omnes means "hail to all," ciao a tutti would be the modern Italian equivalent, and salve was used, like ciao, for hello and goodbye.

Actually 'Salvete Omnes' means Hello or Greetins to All'. 'Ave Omnes means 'Hail to All'. Salve is the first person singular, Salvete the 3rd person imperfect.

[Urselius]

Salvete Omnes means "hail to all," ciao a tutti would be the modern Italian equivalent, and salve was used, like ciao, for hello and goodbye.

Actually 'Salvete Omnes' means Hello or Greetins to All'. 'Ave Omnes means 'Hail to All'. Salve is the first person singular, Salvete the 3rd person imperfect.

But salve was also used for parting, so the Engish construct "Hello all" gives a less accurate idea of Roman usage. Hail is fairly neutral in English as to whether used in greeting or in parting - "hail and farewell." Which is why I used it. Most people know how ciao is used and it is even more precisely the same as the Roman use of salve than hail. Aloha might be another good parallel.

Also the root of salve appears to relate to the concepts: 'safe, unhurt, well, and sound' and as hail derives from the Anglo-Saxon hael, meaning exactly the same (health , wellness etc.) the use of this word for salve is even more apt.