Britain

[Quintus Aurelius Lepidus]

hi

I have a question regarding roman britain:

1) why did the romans never control the north of britain? if you see it on the map they only had to take a little piece. did they know this?

2) did the romans know about ireland? were there any "expeditions" to this island that we know of?

[PhilusEstilius]

I think that part of the reason may have a lot to doe with economics, and also other military problems else where. Which caused some Emperors to keep withdrawing troops for other campains, the Romans were well aware of exactly what Britannia and Caladonia were and also Ireland. Indeed we do know from Tacitus that his father in law Genaeus Julius Agricola made claim he could have taken Ireland with only one Legion.

[Epictetus]

I believe that there were several attempts to conquer the north. One of the best known is the campaign by Septimus Severus, who appears to penetrated all the way to the northernmost reaches. He was quite the general and administrator but was beaten by the guerilla warfare tactics.

Severus, accordingly, desiring to subjugate the whole of it, invaded Caledonia. But as he advanced through the country he experienced countless hardships in cutting down the forests, levelling the heights, filling up the swamps, and bridging the rivers;

but he fought no battle and beheld no enemy in battle array. The enemy purposely put sheep and cattle in front of the soldiers for them to seize, in order that they might be lured on still further until they were worn out; for in fact the water caused great suffering to the Romans, and when they became scattered, they would be attacked. Then, unable to walk, they would be slain by their own men, in order to avoid capture, so that a full fifty thousand died.

But Severus did not desist until he approached the extremity of the island. Here he observed most accurately the variation of the sun's motion and the length of the days and the nights in summer and winter respectively.

Having thus been conveyed through practically the whole of the hostile country (for he actually was conveyed in a covered litter most of the way, on account of his infirmity), he returned to the friendly portion, after he had forced the Britons to come to terms, on the condition that they should abandon a large part of their territory.

Cassius Dio. LXXVII,13.

[Tarbicus]

Don't forget they penetrated the North quite a long way, evidence for which we see in the abandoned fort at Inchtuthil, and the Antonine Wall is further north than Hadrian's. It may have been a simple case of logistics and there not being anything of much worth there (commerce was a great motivator for the Romans, and we can get too wrapped up in the glory idea when they clearly had the ability to say "That's it. We're too extended."), so they simply decided that it wasn't worth the hassle.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ll_map.png

[Jona Lendering]

It may have been a simple case of logistics and there not being anything of much worth there (commerce was a great motivator for the Romans, and we can get too wrapped up in the glory idea when they clearly had the ability to say "That's it. We're too extended.")

Right. The idea of world conquest, so important in Republican and Augustan propaganda, had been abandoned during the reign of Tiberius, who had in Germania seen the problems it generated. Claudius essentially continued this new policy - Britain being the atypical conquest. The other additions to the Empire in this age were Mauritania and Thrace, essentially "defensive annexations" - meant to obtain easier borders. The annexation of the Ager Decumates also belongs to this category.

I would not be surprised if the Romans were unaware of the size of Britain and conquered it because they thought it was necessary for the defense of Gaul.

[Quintus Aurelius Lepidus]

thanx

[D B Campbell]

1) why did the romans never control the north of britain? if you see it on the map they only had to take a little piece. did they know this?

David Breeze has a good article on "Why the Romans failed to conquer Scotland" in PSAS 118 (1988), available for free download here.

[Jona Lendering]

David Breeze has a good article on "Why the Romans failed to conquer Scotland" in PSAS 118 (1988), available for free download here.

Interesting! For those in a hurry, Breeze summarizes himself:

The two serious attempts to complete the conquest of Britain, under Agricola and Severus, failed, not because of a defeat of the Roman army in the island, but because problems elsewhere led to a failure to follow up Roman victories. In the 80s troops were required on the Danube; in 211 the emperor died and was not able to enforce his will on his son from beyond the grave.

[Narukami]

1) why did the romans never control the north of britain? if you see it on the map they only had to take a little piece. did they know this?

David Breeze has a good article on "Why the Romans failed to conquer Scotland" in PSAS 118 (1988), available for free download here.

Thanks for the link to the article!

:wink:

Narukami

[Ceannt]

hi

I have a question regarding roman britain:

1) why did the romans never control the north of britain? if you see it on the map they only had to take a little piece. did they know this?

2) did the romans know about ireland? were there any "expeditions" to this island that we know of?

In anwser to question 2 yes rome knew about Ireland and there is a small coast fort in north Co.Dublin and there is a room full to the raffters with roman military gear Armor, helments, ect,

[D B Campbell]

... there is a small coast fort in north Co.Dublin and there is a room full to the raffters with roman military gear Armor, helments, ect,

An archaeologist's dream!

[Quintus Aurelius Lepidus]

very useful article! tnx!

do you know the name of the fort?

[D B Campbell]

do you know the name of the fort?

Er ... I think we were getting our leg pulled, Yves. :wink:

[Ceannt]

... there is a small coast fort in north Co.Dublin and there is a room full to the raffters with roman military gear Armor, helments, ect,

An archaeologist's dream!

It is but because of planing rights is was not a leagl dig so it was hushed up

[Urselius]

It has been said that the Romans, a people who equated wheat-bread with the very staff of life, didn't find conquests beyond where wheat was growable very enticing. Scotland is a land of oats and barley, not wheat, the Romans just didn't want it badly enough.