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Quote:Thank you for your reply, Graham (sorry about the formality, my Dad's training seems to stick better than I'd have admitted back when I was younger).
Here's the picture in question, from Roman Military Clothing [1]
That's OK and it is OK to post the picture too as that drawing is my copyright. 
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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So I guess I'll direct the question to Graham...
What would you say based on your experience and knowledge would be a proper salute if any?
Thanks a LOT for stopping in on the discussion and talking about the image and your experiences. You mentioned you changed the image that was based on the sculpture, so I just wanted to pose that question to you just to clarify.
"It is the brave man\'s part to live with glory, or with glory die."
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Quote:I ran a search and it didn't come up with much (a few started discussions but never really any end to them). There's some references to a few discussions/debates that no longer show up or are covered with HTML code that isn't recognized by this forum.
... I know this probably has come up many times, but I just don't see it in a forum search. At least, no discussions that came to any conclusions (and they're 4+ years old).
:?: This one raged over a year (2004-5) and 4 pages:
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This one took 18 months (2004-5) and 5 pages:
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More, a recent discussion from 2007:
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Again...
Quote:... I know this probably has come up many times, but I just don't see it in a forum search. At least, no discussions that came to any conclusions (and they're 4+ years old).
There wasn't much concluded from any of those links you posted. Not only that but a lot could change in 2+ years... hence the reason I asked the question.  Plus it looks like Graham added a new spin on the discussion with his image.
"It is the brave man\'s part to live with glory, or with glory die."
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There's really no new spin...that image doesn't show much in the way of a salute. I also disagree with Graham's assesment (respectfully) that it is easier to show what we consider a salute by having the hand vertical and not horizontal (in sculpture's case). Also, remember the artist was sculpting for a contemporary audience...the "people" would have been able to understand the context of the sculpture without a lot of explanation. So it would be easier to do the hand horizontally. Plus, if that is the case, then why not lay the thumb flat against the hand...instead it is straight up. A relief of the hand horizontal could well be done, simply having the thumb in higher relief to show it's position.
I think the figure in that art is doing something else completely, as I mentioned above. 8)
TJ, you're just going to have to come to terms with the fact that...well, we just don't and maybe never will have all the facts.
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Magnus/Matt
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Quote:TJ, you're just going to have to come to terms with the fact that...well, we just don't and maybe never will have all the facts.
Oh I don't doubt that we may never know on a LOT of things. Especially as more and more time passes. I've "come to terms" with that long before I ever began learning how to spell the name "Rome". That's not the problem. What I think though is anything is possible over a few years time. New things show up, someone finds something that most other people don't know... and if not discussed, the rest of us may never know. That's the purpose of this thread, and I would imagine many of the posts on this forum.
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Ok...but there is nothing new lol.
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Magnus/Matt
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Quote:Ok...but there is nothing new lol.
Well then I appreciate the information. It doesn't hurt to ask... or maybe it does.
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M. Demetrius, I thought the diogmitoi in the picturs from Graham Sumners book was giving a nazi style salute and his perpendicular hand was just account of the artists lack of skill or stylization. Before I took classes, my drawing during my teen years would have people with limbs in positions that looked a bit different from the actual position I was trying to convey. I figured this particular artist did the same, so you can see the persons hand clearly and know he was giving a salute, instead of carving the hand from a somewhat difficult to portray angle.
Dennis Flynn
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woops, i just read more of the discussion and see that Graham already brought up my opinion. sorry, I really need to read the whole thing before responding, or respond earlier.
Dennis Flynn
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Quote:So I guess I'll direct the question to Graham...
What would you say based on your experience and knowledge would be a proper salute if any?
Thanks a LOT for stopping in on the discussion and talking about the image and your experiences.
I would say that even after many years of research I have barely scratched the surface on this topic and feel I am not qualified to give you an answer. My reconstruction was based on the comments of others and as you can see they all differed. In many cases as re-enactors or illustrators we are only ever working from a fraction of the material that is made available or is easily accessible which in turn is only a fraction of the material that once existed. Opinions and thoughts will also differ from age to age and from scholar to scholar.
Quote:I thought the diogmitoi in the picturs from Graham Sumners book was giving a nazi style salute and his perpendicular hand was just account of the artists lack of skill or stylization. Before I took classes, my drawing during my teen years would have people with limbs in positions that looked a bit different from the actual position I was trying to convey. I figured this particular artist did the same, so you can see the persons hand clearly and know he was giving a salute, instead of carving the hand from a somewhat difficult to portray angle.
Well that was my thought too. Even after drawing for many years I would still find it difficult to draw a hand with the palm held horizontally, I imagine it would be even more difficult for a sculptor. If I am not extremely careful the finger and thumb can look like badly drawn sausages!
Quote:it looks like Graham added a new spin on the discussion with his image.
As commneted no new spin really, my drawing and reconstruction were made seven years ago.
Quote:Ok...but there is nothing new lol.
True in the sense that nothing new appears to have been published or discovered that is readily available for the general public.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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To hail another man whilst having your head covered was an insult to the gods, and you ran the danger of their jealousy and wrath, as this gesture while covered up top was a sign of piety and respect to them. The subject of the salute has been discussed extensively elsewhere on RAT. Theoretically, putting the hand to the helmet illustrates to the gods that you wish to cause them no offence, but need to remain safe from enemies while hailing a highly respected mortal. Just my opinion.
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TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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Hi all,
This could be an interesting read:
Winkler, Martin M. The Roman salute: cinema, history, ideology. Columbus: Ohio State University Press, 2009. xi, 223 p. ISBN 9780814208649.
Please forgive me if this title was already mentioned before.
Greets,
Hans
Flandria me genuit, tenet nunc Roma
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Just a comment to throw in on the subject of the "sideways Nazi salute". It's forbidden or incredibly rude in some cultures to point a finger, particularly in Africa. Given the artistic nature of the "salute", I'd like to suggest it's simply a means for the artists to indicate the important person, but in a way that modern westerners don't recognise simply because culturally we instinctively expect our own rules to be followed by the ancients. In other words, they're pointing at the subject the viewer is supposed to look at. I can't help but feel that far too much is read into the gesture.
In, for example, Uganda, pointing the finger at someone is an accusation, whereas the gesture we also see in Roman artwork is the accepted polite way to greet a person, or indicate towards them. Children are taught from an early age to never point a finger - it's a grave insult.
Can anyone think of any examples in Roman artwork showing the forefinger being pointed at another person? If not, I'd say the gesture was a standard one to merely indicate the subject of interest.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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Being a bit new to this site I seem to have come into this debate a little late, but I thought it might be worth mentioning that in Josephus' 'The Jewish War' he mentions a 'salute', although it is not necessarily military. When describing Titus' approch to Antioch he talks about the people coming out to meet him. The description in translated modern books usually goes somthing like this (I quote from Penguin Classics - Josephus, The Jewish War, page 382) 'When they saw him coming, they lined both sides of the road, extending their right arms in salute, then calling down every kind of blessing on his head escorted him to Antioch'. Now, I do not know how accurate the translation is from the original, and the salute is certainly not being carried out by military personel, but it could be where some people, past or present, got the idea that Romans, civilian or military, used the raised arm salute.
Oly Martin
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