Roman Legionaries against Cavalry

[Aulus Perrinius]

Okay seeing as how the republic formation wasn't shoulder to shoulder it was about 6 inches between everybody so they had room to fight this brings me to Arrians Array against the Alans

Since the Legionaires didn't have Pikes and the Pilum is a soft shafted throwing weapon (Not to mention short!) how did they manage to repulse Cavalry Charges? Seeing as how they were swordmen and a lot of the tactocal doctrines I've read say that Swordsmen while they were extremely useful were easily scattered by Cavalry. Did the Roman officers just hope that the formation would be thick enough that the corpses would stop the momentum cavalry charge? Or did the romans not face heavy cavalry often enough for it to be a problem?

Please Help

-Thanks

[derek forrest]

If you ask Peter Connolly he will pour scorn on the bendy pilum idea and in consequence the Guard new issue are very heavy and not definately not bendy. They do present a formidable obstacle to cavalry unless of course you have already used them as a missile. The Gallic tribes of course were big users of cavalry. I was interested to see that in the Forgotten Legion the author has the horse archer outranging the pilum and penetrating the legionary shield until covered in silk. Anybody done field trials?

[Gaius Longius]

Hi All,

From what I have read the points need not be long.
During the Napolionic era it is said French cavalry were unable to penetrate British squares of infantry and they were only armed with bayonets on muskets or rifles.
Also during my time doing medieval I actually saw a small group of archers use their bows with the horn tips to force a group of horsemen back, the horses obviously understanding the threat these posed and refusing their riders urges to move forward.
Just my two sesterses.
Regards,
Gary

[Aulus Perrinius]

Keep in mind it's still a very short weapon that is at the end of the day it's a Javelin.

Yes however there are several battles where battle trained warhorses charged home against solid infantry

[olymartin]

It should be taken into account that the evidence suggests that cavalry horses in Roman times were nothing like the size of the great cavalry chargers that thundered across the battlefield of Waterloo (most estimates I have read suggest around 12 hands - 14 at the most, so ponies by today's standards). As long as the legionaries held their ground and formation, especially if the ranks were arranged 'checkerboard' style, all the horse would see is a solid wall, nearly as tall as they are, with spiky things sticking out of it. It is unlikely that most would be willing enough or stupid enough to charge pell-mell into it. Even in Napolionic times, the much bigger cavalry horses were seldom willing to charge headlong into properly formed infantry formations, it was more a case of the rider persuading the horse to get close into the formation and then getting it to use its weight to push its way through the ranks while the rider slashed or stabbed down with their weapon.

[Sean Manning]

Okay seeing as how the republic formation wasn't shoulder to shoulder it was about 6 inches between everybody so they had room to fight this brings me to Arrians Array against the Alans

Since the Legionaires didn't have Pikes and the Pilum is a soft shafted throwing weapon (Not to mention short!) how did they manage to repulse Cavalry Charges? Seeing as how they were swordmen and a lot of the tactocal doctrines I've read say that Swordsmen while they were extremely useful were easily scattered by Cavalry. Did the Roman officers just hope that the formation would be thick enough that the corpses would stop the momentum cavalry charge? Or did the romans not face heavy cavalry often enough for it to be a problem?

Please Help

-Thanks

Well, Arrian describes legionaries shoulder to shoulder with lots of shafted weapons sticking out in front of them and lots of men throwing and shooting things at the cavalry. Which is pretty close to the prefered solution in other periods! Caesar describes his men doing the same thing when fighting on the defensive against infantry or cavalry. The formation with six feet of width per man was still used, but only when attacking.

In the Republican period, most enemies of Rome used cavalry on the flanks of the line, so if it was succesful it would attack the legions in the flanks or rear. Simply put, I don't know of any research on combat between Republican legionaries in normal fighting order and cavalry. In the previous thread I gave one example of cataphracts smashing a legion.

[Arminius Primus]

Ave Fratres,

Bear in mind my memory is faulty at best , but I believe there is an account in Cassius Dio that relates how a cohort formed square , shield to shield and took a cavalry charge head on , and was successful in completely routing the cavalry....all of this supposedly on a frozen river. So maybe horse size, the ever recurring saddle issue, or in this case the ice played a roll.

Are there other well documented accounts of how Roman infantry defeated a mounted enemy? I am sure on RAT that someone probably is an expert in just that field.

Regards from a sunny but cool morning in the Balkans, Arminius Primus aka Al

[Arminius Primus]

Ave Fratres,

Found it!........ as always on the excellent Lacus Curtius site. Book 72 (LXXII) paragraph 7. Good description of the action. Maybe someone on RAT that can read the original Greek could puzzle out more detail.....but this English version is pretty good.

Regards from the Balkans, Arminius Primus aka Al

[M. Demetrius]

Here is the reference, and it's anything but an ordinary battle.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... o/72*.html \\
7 The Iazyges were conquered by the Romans on land at this time and later on the river. By this I do not mean that any naval battle took place, but that the Romans pursued them as they fled over the frozen Ister and fought there as on dry land. The Iazyges, perceiving that they were being pursued, awaited their opponents' onset, expecting to overcome them easily, as the others were not accustomed to the ice. Accordingly, some of the barbarians dashed straight at them, while others rode round to attack their flanks, as their horses had been trained to run safely even over a surface of this kind. The Romans upon observing this were not alarmed, but formed in a compact body, facing all their foes at once, and most of them laid down their shields and rested one p25foot upon them, so that they might not slip so much; and thus they received the enemy's charge. Some seized the bridles, others the shields and spearshafts of their assailants, and drew the men toward them; and thus, becoming involved in close conflict, they knocked down both men and horses, since the barbarians by reason of their momentum could no longer keep from slipping. The Romans, to be sure, also slipped; but in case one of them fell on his back, he would drag his adversary down on top of him and then with his feet would hurl him backwards, as in a wrestling match, and so would get on top of him; and if one fell on his face, he would actually seize with his teeth his antagonist, who had fallen first. For the barbarians, being unused to a contest of this sort, and having lighter equipment, were unable to resist, so that but few escaped out of a large force.

This tells me that the Romans did not fear cavalry, were willing to fight on very unusual circumstances, were innovative, and knew a bit about bar room brawling as well as wrestling/hand to hand combat. The latter was very likely trained, the former by experience.

[Ross Cowan]

My forthcoming article about Roman tactics (AD 194-378) in Ancient Warfare III-6 will include discussion of infantry vs cavalry scenarios. See also my article in Ancient Warfare III-5 on the battle of Nisibis (AD 217) for Romans versus Parthians:

[url:1b8z3eae]http://www.ancient-warfare.com/cms/ancient-warfare/guidelines/editorial-plan-2.html[/url]

Cheers,

R

[Mithras]

A shield wall coupled with a row of spikes may have been proof enough- I think the shield wall perhaps being the most important part of that equation.

[M. Demetrius]

For some reason, I just remembered the infantry 's defeating a few thousand cavalry at the battle of Pharsalus. True, the cavalry were taken by surprise, but Pompey's cavalry outnumbered Caesar's cavalry AND the infantry they ended up having to deal with. This led to the rout of Pompey's cavalry, and the subsequent destruction of the whole archer/slinger group on that wing, then the folding up of the whole of Pompey's army.

All in all, I guess I'd have to say that in that situation, the infantry was a match for the cavalry, wouldn't you?

[Aulus Perrinius]

Okay seeing as how the republic formation wasn't shoulder to shoulder it was about 6 inches between everybody so they had room to fight this brings me to Arrians Array against the Alans

Since the Legionaires didn't have Pikes and the Pilum is a soft shafted throwing weapon (Not to mention short!) how did they manage to repulse Cavalry Charges? Seeing as how they were swordmen and a lot of the tactocal doctrines I've read say that Swordsmen while they were extremely useful were easily scattered by Cavalry. Did the Roman officers just hope that the formation would be thick enough that the corpses would stop the momentum cavalry charge? Or did the romans not face heavy cavalry often enough for it to be a problem?

Please Help

-Thanks

Well, Arrian describes legionaries shoulder to shoulder with lots of shafted weapons sticking out in front of them and lots of men throwing and shooting things at the cavalry. Which pretty close to the prefered solution in other periods! Caesar describes his men doing the same thing when fighting on the defensive against infantry or cavalry. The formation with six feet of width per man was still used, but only when attacking.

In the Republican period, most enemies of Rome used cavalry on the flanks of the line, so if it was succesful it would attack the legions in the flanks or rear. Simply put, I don't know of any research on combat between Republican legionaries in normal fighting order and cavalry. In the previous thread I gave one example of cataphracts smashing a legion.

Shafted weapons huh? That would make sense

@ M. Demetrius

Thanks for the info