Perseus\' weapon

[morhathol]

Hello,

I've been looking for some vase paintings in our library today and I stumbled upon this painting [url:3tq6aoa3]http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/8379/img1206k.jpg[/url] (sorry for bad quality, I couldn't scan the book, only take a photo). The weapon Perseus is holding caught my attention, I have never seen such in Greek art. It looks like a medieval guisarme without the pole.

The book was in Italian, so I couldn't get much from the text, but at least I learned it's painted by Tarporley painter. Though I didn't find the painting on the internet (now I remember I forgot to consult the Boardman book we have about red figure vases), I found an article with a description of the piece (search for Tarporley, it's the first and only mention in the text). That it depicts Athena holding the head of Medusa, Perseus and Hermes I have deciphered even with the little knowledge I have, but the weapon is described simply as "weapon":

"The nude figure of Perseus stands in profile on the left facing Athena, as he leans his left elbow on a pillar draped in fabric, perhaps his chlamys. He wears an elaborate winged hat on his head and carries his weapon in his lowered right hand." (Susan M. Serfontein 1991, see link for original)

So it didn't help much, though the description is quite detailed and the article (which seems to be a thesis for MA) might be interesting.

Does anyone recognize the weapon? Or is it a weapon to begin with? There is, of course, the possibility that it's a well known item and my question is stupid, so please forgive me if that's the case.

Best wishes

[PMBardunias]

This is often called a Harpe. It is an agricultural tool, at least originally, for many such tools, like flails and bills, evolve into weapons. There are elaborate versians of the tool that I have seen in Roman use that have a sickle edge on one side and a small axe blade on the other, almost like the head of a halbred. There is at least one good image of this point and sickle blade combo concept that is a spear head and so very much like a pole arm. But there is debate over the form of what the greeks called the Doru-drepanon or spear-sickle.

[hoplite14gr]

A very liberal depiction of the Carrian sicle sword.
Herodotus in his description of Carrians, Lykians, talks about it.
He also says that the Carrian bodyguard of King Onesilos of Cyprus carried one weapon of this type.
Grave stones from Anatolia depict warriors with such weapons.
Kind regards

[morhathol]

Thank you both for the informations.

I see there's even a short article about harpe on wikipedia and it seems to be often attributed to Perseus. I could have known that, sadly the popularised versions of the myths seldom retain accurate terms and I have yet to read a full version of this myth.
I understand the spike at the end was a regular part of the harpe? It was namely this spike that intrigued me, a sickle-like sword would seem common/plausible enough to me.

Stefanos, is the Carrian sword the same weapon as harpe, or were there more similar weapons in the region? Other than Canaanite and Egyptian sickle swords, which I believe are quite older.

Best wishes

[PMBardunias]

This thread will be of interest:

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[hoplite14gr]

Stricly on dating from dag-up finds, the earliest specimens of curved swords in the Mediteranean are either Egyptian or Syro-Chananite.
It seems that Asia Minor residents (Carrians, Lykians, Pamfylians) were influenced by them to produce their own specimens.
Paul is right about the image being an agricultural tool though. I have seen metal blades similar to the depiction in abandoned village warehouses.
In an era that metal were expensive a big metal object might had many uses.

Kind regards

[morhathol]

Thanks, Paul, it's been an interesting reading. So there actually could have been weapons similar to guisarme in ancient times, being used in a pretty much same way. Also the possibility of the rhomhpaia in fact being a dorudrepanon, as N. Sekunda proposes is very interesting.

Thanks to you as well, Stefanos.

If I may have another question, do you have knowledge or an opinion (or perhaps is it explained in the myth) on why was Perseus carrying the harpe (or dorudrepanon in some depictions)? Was it a matter of tradition, similar to the Spartan xyele, or perhaps was it implied by his status or background? Or simply Perseus' choice? I'm only guessing, as I really have little knowledge in this.
But that's just an additional question, I'm very grateful for your explanations so far.

Best wishes

[hoplite14gr]

I am treading thin Ice here but my opinion is that the Myths (Greek "Mythimi": I tell a tale) describe long lost real events.
I believe that the myth has to do with raiding parties from the Greek islands who operated in the Eastern Meditteranean in the "Dark Ages" 1150 to 850 B.C.
Some of this raiding parties were armed with improvised weapons or faced hastily equipped adversaries.
Remember Hermes (god of trade and theft) gave the weapon to Perseus which means that these weapons were acquired by means of trade or war loot.
Perseus mythical description matches a light raider.

Kind regards

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I've come to tha tconclusion myself, although, as you say, it is treading on thin ice!
We seem to have lost a hell of a lot more of our history than we have record of.

[morhathol]

Yes, I know myths often reflect history or various aspects of the time and culture, but I haven't yet thought of this interpretation of Perseus' myth. Interesting, and it seems quite plausible. It might at least be one of the myth's meanings, because comparative religionists advocate plurality and flexibility of the meanings of myths, if I remember it correctly from school.

Thanks for explaining

Best wishes

[PMBardunias]

Medusa was a Cthonic or "earthy" creature, her lineage traces through sea gods to Gaia if I recall. Perhaps the use of an agricultural tool was symbolic in conquoring the land.

The harpe and Xyele were pruning tools I think, for taking off branches and whittling shafts. This makes sense in the Spartan context- as in "give a boy a spear and he fights until its broken, give a boy a Xyele an the knowledge to use it and he becomes an arsenal." So it might just be that for lopping off heads, a harpe is a natual choice. I think I have seen Heracles using one to cut off hydra heads, when he is not using his club.

Stephanos, it is interesting that the drepanon could be used to cut rigging if your idea about a connection to early island raiding and presumably piracy is true.

[hoplite14gr]

Well the problem is that all the presented views are...right!

Paul is right taking the myth to the neolithic period.
Also Athena guided Perseus in his actions (some tribal queen priestess inspiring the men to toil the land?)
Paul interpretation stands.

I brought the "Ancient Dark Ages" into the equation and they seem to fit nicely too.
Raiders and their opponents with improvised weapons and using bravery and tricks and carved blades against rigging.
The raiders are fleet-footed (winged sandals) and defenders have monstrous shield-devices(??)
(Athena again as godess of War /Strategy guides lightly armed Perseus)

The usual issue lots of indication and few if any proof.

Kind regards

[morhathol]

That's what I meant at first, Paul, whether there was a particular reason to use a harpe instead of an axe for example. The idea of harpe being a "traditional head-chopper" looks fine. I know it's just your suggestion, but it's as good as any, isn't it?

Perhaps Athena as the goddess of wisdom and knowledge could be a personification of these traits? Therefore having her as a guide would simply mean the "invention" of agriculture didn't come randomly but as a result of both the wisdom men are know for and the empirically collected knowledge about plant growth in the nature.

Best wishes

[john m roberts]

The ritual use of the sickle is common in Greek and other myths, probably because of its lunar-crescent shape. Saturn uses a sickle to castrate Cronos, for instance. I believe this is why Hermes gives Perseus a sickle for the supernatural feat of beheading a Gorgon.

[hoplite14gr]

Another interesting way of looking at it John and it fits nicely too.

Kind regards