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Hi folks, have been delving in my books, plus delving thru various things over the internet, and I am just not coming up with anything.
Has anyone heard of or seen any evidence, of these types of shields still being used within this time frame by the empire or its allies?
To be honest, I cant understand, why they went away from them and started using the larger oval shields. Its a waste of material and not as protective. But I also know, by this time, the influence of the infantry was very much down, and the faster mobile troop types were in full strength.
I just love this time frame, but well also like using a scutum. Not necessairly the large ones, but the ones of the type that you see on various columns, I think Trajans is the one I am thinking of, where they are shorter, maybe 30 or 32 inches in length.
Any help in this area would be greatly appreciative.
Thanks
John Tibbs
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John. I would think that the reason why the curved scutum went out in the later Roman time period is that the fighting tactics had changed by that time. The curved shield was to give a better body coverage for soldiers who were fighting at very close quarter, however as time went on we find that most if not all had the longer spartha.
With this type of sword we have men now fighting at a distance of around 6 feet or almost 2 metres from one another and of course this kind of sword is a long slashing weapon, therefore men would be swinging from side to side and indeed all directions and a flat shield becomes more easy to move around than a curved scutum would be.
Where you mention the curved scutum of 32 or so inch length I might say around 34 to 36 inch, for when we look at most Roman depictions of the scutum it does appear to look of shorter length than those used by re-enactors today.
I do begin to think that many have become influenced by the Dura scutum length, for if we consider the examples of republican shields that have been found and their lengths when we take off the top and bottom curves of these we are only left with around 30 somthing inches I'd say about 36.
This is a subject I think should be discussed a bit more for have all the re-enactment groups been influenced by the ESG re-enactment group who set the bench mark of 40 inches or so some 30 odd years ago and no one wishes to question the idea of scutum length.
Brian Stobbs
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Some of the grave markers seem to have shields (of different shapes) that seem to be long enough to cover knees to shoulders. My Auxillia cliptus are 41" which does this for my 67"
height. Crouching a bit and it covers up to just below eye level. If I were to wear greeves and a manica there would be little to target for an enemy. I am of the opinion that shields
would have been customized to the height of the soldier when practical making the shorter people in Roman days have generally shorter shields that are needed today. So few examples have been found we are left with trying to guess from grave markers, shield fragments, a couple of shield covers, and the very few shields (2?) found largely intact.
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The late roman scutum is not necessarly flat. A lot of them are lenticular and either round or oval in shape. It does give a lot of protection. Now I don't think one is clearly superior to the other. Different fighting styles as said above. The spatha could well be used in thrusting attacks as Vegetius says, and that scutum was also more used with the hasta.
"O niurt Ambrois ri Frangc ocus Brethan Letha."
"By the strenght of Ambrosius, king of the Franks and the Armorican Bretons."
Lebor Bretnach, Irish manuscript of the Historia Brittonum.
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Agraes / Morcant map Conmail / Benjamin Franckaert
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The rectangular scutum size is indeed something we should start discussing, maybe you could make another thread in the re-enactment section on this subject.
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Quote:Scutum/Rectangular shields 410ad to 510ad?
I would say no.
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Quote:Fhyn:18i6a264 Wrote:Scutum/Rectangular shields 410ad to 510ad?
I would say no.
Me too. No evidence that I can think of.
As well as the change from short to long swords, I suspect that there was also an increasing use of spears in infantry combat. An oval shield can give superior coverage to the upper chest and shoulder when using a spear to deliver overarm thrusts to your opponents face and there are no awkard corners to work around.
"Medicus" Matt Bunker
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Hi
Trust Roman art to fly in the face of convention!
There is a depiction in one of the late Roman illustrated manuscripts of the Aeneid which shows a battle scene with a soldier holding a rectangular shield. He is heavily outnumbered by those carrying oval shield though. It is red-purple in colour!
Graham.
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Quote:Hi
Trust Roman art to fly in the face of convention!
There is a depiction in one of the late Roman illustrated manuscripts of the Aeneid which shows a battle scene with a soldier holding a rectangular shield. He is heavily outnumbered by those carrying oval shield though. It is red-purple in colour!
Graham.
Shhhhh! :wink:
It's true. It's in the Virgilius Vaticanus.
[attachment=0:k0g6b2g0]<!-- ia0 VV.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:k0g6b2g0]
"Medicus" Matt Bunker
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Quote:Shhhhh! :wink:
It's true. It's in the Virgilius Vaticanus.
[attachment=0:3bwsc21v]<!-- ia0 VV.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:3bwsc21v]
I see two of them, in fact, a grayish one top right and a yellowish one below him. But in my opinion this MS is copying earlier art rather than contemporary fashion.
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Quote:With this type of sword we have men now fighting at a distance of around 6 feet or almost 2 metres from one another and of course this kind of sword is a long slashing weapon, therefore men would be swinging from side to side and indeed all directions and a flat shield becomes more easy to move around than a curved scutum would be.
That's an enormous distance between each man and the next, which would be easy for an enemy to push through. You've hit the inabity to wield a spatha in all direction on the head, but the resulting spacing between the men is in my opinion incorrect. Sources speak of touching rim, even overlapping, and some even mention a space of 3 feet for each man, not even between each man and the next. That would mean the spatha could only be used overhand or underhand (not swinging from side to side), which would also be accomodated by a round or oval shield.
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Hi Robert
Not the scene I had to hand but from the same source. The picture caption indeed says the illustration is a copy of an earlier work. I think we have already discussed that the clothing does not look fifth century but perhaps dates even to the third.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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Hi Graham
Quote:I think we have already discussed that the clothing does not look fifth century but perhaps dates even to the third.
Indeed so.
I think it's safe to say that all 4th and 5th c. art depicting contemporary soldiers does not include any rectangular shields?
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Quote:With this type of sword we have men now fighting at a distance of around 6 feet or almost 2 metres from one another and of course this kind of sword is a long slashing weapon, therefore men would be swinging from side to side and indeed all directions and a flat shield becomes more easy to move around than a curved scutum would be.
Sorry Brian, do you mean that the opposing ranks would be fighting 6 feet apart or that each man would be 6 feet from his neighbour in the shieldwall?
I doubt if there was much 'swinging from side to side'. Blows would primarily be aimed at the head or shoulders and be delivered either vertically or at a high diagonal (forehand or backhand). Neither of thse attacks require much space either side.
"Medicus" Matt Bunker
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I would like to point out to both Matt and Robert that where I mention 6 feet or 2 metres apart is in relationship to opposing forces, it is where I was trying to put my point to Fhyn as to how the curved scutum went out of use along with the close quarter style of fighting.
Where the Roman army had taken up the long spartha we also have to look at the fashion of armour that they now did not have so much of, so I would consider yes they would be at a greater distance from one another and when a shield wall gives way and a man finds he is being attacked from left and right at the same time he will swing left or right and that is with both sword and shield if need be.
I do not of course consider that the long spartha was just a slashing type of weapon it would be used in thrusting also, and as has been suggested the spear was used for thrusting at an enemy. Infact I would imagine the soldiers would have held onto the spear for now there would have been no more mass shock pilum throw before the shoulder crunch type fighting of earlier times.
I still say yet again that the size of the earlier curved scutum still yet needs to be discussed, for the idea of 40 plus inches or so with a massive wrap around just makes it too unwieldy in any type of battle.
Brian Stobbs
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