Merovingian / Salian Frank Impression

[lamebadger]

Hi guys, my aim is to create a merovingian loadout, timeframe around 470 AD, place toxandria, right bank of the river scheldt.
A spangenhelm i already have, and a chainmail i'm planning on getting soon.
Now, the questions i'd like to ask;
- did the Franks of that time wore any additional protection under the mail.
- did they have flat round shields or convex round shield
- should i get a spatha as a sword
- where can i find these item's

Dave

[Kai]

Hi Dave,

That is an ambitious project!

I do not know what Spangenhelm you have exactly, but two things need to be considered:
The most prominent Spangenhelm type, Baldenheim, does not appear before 500. 470 is thus a very early date. The Baldenheim type is also usually VERY decorated and belonged to very rich/powerful men. The rest of your display should be equally good.
(as far as Spangenhelme are concerned Mahand Vogt 2006 is the very best book on topic)

We do not know of underpadding specifically for the Franks, but considering the late Roman army definetly had such padding and the Salian Franks were or are a part of that army, as a federate command, it is very likely they used it as well.

Shields were mostly flat, convex shields seem to be a little later according to Guy Halsall.

A spatha is almost a must have if you don a Baldenheim... and now is the bad news, it should be pattern welded. (Christian Mik's seminal book on Roman swords also deals with the period you are looking for, again a must-read)
You can get one here at reasonable prices (nr. 117 or 146 e.g.):
http://www.templ.net/english/weapons-ant...#146-sword
http://www.templ.net/english/weapons-ant...ilt_spatha

But there are many other good smiths out there, my pattern welded Spatha is from Jürgen Grassler. I can recommend him 100%, very helpful and good prices.
http://www.schorsch-der-schmied.de/Replikate.html

I may also point out that you could go for lamellar armour as well - your King Childeric seemingly did so, after all :wink:

[Vindex]

ad: Did you HAVE to put those links up without warning?

Now I have sword envy all over again and you've put my therapy back months!

:wink:

Fabulous work...

[garrelt]

Hi guys, my aim is to create a merovingian loadout, timeframe around 470 AD, place toxandria, right bank of the river scheldt.
A spangenhelm i already have, and a chainmail i'm planning on getting soon.
Now, the questions i'd like to ask;
- did the Franks of that time wore any additional protection under the mail.
- did they have flat round shields or convex round shield
- should i get a spatha as a sword
- where can i find these item's

Dave

Sorry Dave.
-No helmets or chainmail remains known from this/our region
-The archaeological evidence and descriptions concerning shields that I found (max 75cm diameter) are round and flat.
-You don't have to have a sword.
-There are not many accurate things on the market, most is custom made.
And those things that are on the market are not cheap.
A top level grave reconstruction, excluding horse tack, can easily set you back around 10.000 euros.

Which region and which grave from which gravefield do you want to reconstruct?
Merovingian is for me an on going study and reconstruction that started 18 years ago.
Meerveldhoven and Geldrop are my close by research and reconstruction gravesites.

[garrelt]

My Helmet and Spatha


[attachment=2742]100_3617.JPG[/attachment]
Most of the time I don't wear it, but it is nice to have.
It also came with a good price.

[attachment=2743]100_3622.JPG[/attachment]
The blade is pattern welded and made by Markus Balbach.

[Robert Vermaat]

-No helmets or chainmail remains known from this/our region.

Is Cologne too far outside the region?

[StephenCurtin]

Hi Dave, as you seem to want to portray a wealthier warrior from this period, in addition to a sword you might also be interested in a long narrow seax. Grave finds from this time, such as Tournai and Pouan, show us that both sword and seax were used together. To see a beautiful recreation of one of these, check out Patrick Barta's site, no. 135 (I think). Also, not sure if this was mentioned but, you should get yourself a good spear, and perhaps a long range weapon, such as an angon or francesca.

[Kai]

-No helmets or chainmail remains known from this/our region.

Is Cologne too far outside the region?

Or Krefeld-Gellep, or Morken for that matter... Both can be reached in travel of three days from Toxandria. They are slightly later though, the Spangenhelm of Krefeld e.g. is dated to post 535.
It is really a question of what your reenactment philosophy is. The distance in space would not be a problem for me, especially as we are still talking about the Franks, the distance in time maybe...

[garrelt]

Well Dave was verry specific about the region, that is why I said NO to the chainmail and helmet question.
From the known Dutch Merovingian sites, helmets and chainmail are not known to me.
But if someone has different info from the Netherlands or Belgium I'm interested.
If he (Dave) or someone else want's to show the stereotype Merovingian than that is up to him/her.
I personally prefer replicating a grave, then you know that you have a matching set.
There are enough graves published to choose from.

All the other helmets, and a lot of German and French gravesites are known to me.

[Robert Vermaat]

Well Dave was verry specific about the region, that is why I said NO to the chainmail and helmet question.

Sure enough, but I would not think that this region was completely cut off from other influences, even a few days riding. Indeed you are right, IF you want to re-create a warrior from that region, AND you only want to use the finds from STRICTLY that region, you will be limited to these finds.
However, how reasonably would it be to suggest that these finds represent all the influences in the region of Toxandria? Looking at finds from other regions would not means that Dave's Frankish warrior would look odd.

[Kai]

From the known Dutch Merovingian sites, helmets and chainmail are not known to me.
But if someone has different info from the Netherlands or Belgium I'm interested.

An iron helmet related to the Spangenhelm type (Bandhelm) has been found in Trivières, Belgium, grave site 23 - but that is actually twice the distance between Krefeld and Toxandria.

While I do appreciate the approach to reconstruct certain graves, Garrelt, I must agree with Robert.
May I ask on what Spangenhelm your helmet is based on?

[garrelt]

Kai
I bought my helmet as a second hand about 8 years ago.
I have to ask the previous owner, when I meet him somewhere, sometime (if he is still in the scene).

Robert
You know me.
I go for what is instead of the maybe,perhaps,could be, possible options in the reconstruction fase.
Some people don't but that is up to them.

Some things need a compromise like clothing, but the artifacts in a grave also tell a important story of a era,region and its social composition.

Dave
The Merovingian era is a verry beautiful era.
Looking forward to your reconstruction.

I rest my case.

[Baiuware]

Hi Dave,
I already replied to Your PN, but now that I know the timeframe and region, as well as the social status You're going for, let me say the following:

If done right, this is not going to be cheap (think in the region of 25.000€) and it is going to be a lot of work (a lot of research to do and no dsc or depeeka to buy gear).

Just as an example, a bit later and a bit more to the west than what You are planning:

The Gammertingen chamber grave of a warrior:
Belt buckle and shoe buckles, golden rivets and so on. This guy had far more than 10 grams of gold on his equipment (Shield, belt, shoes, helmet). In his grave was the full range of elite weapons of his time: lance, angon, spatha.
This guy was rich.

If You were to portray such a man, You would not only have to own the weapons and armour, but also the fitting clothes and ornament. Even if You were to "cheat" where ist is possible (as most of us do), a Spangenhelm just has to be gilded, chainmaille has to be rivetted and so on.

Most of the stuff would have to be custommade and that is expensive.

Just as a caveat

I wish You fun and success with You plan and hope to see the progress (and result) here and in person!

Andreas

[gaiusseptimiuslucianus]

Hi guys, my aim is to create a merovingian loadout, timeframe around 470 AD, place toxandria, right bank of the river scheldt.
A spangenhelm i already have, and a chainmail i'm planning on getting soon.
Now, the questions i'd like to ask;
- did the Franks of that time wore any additional protection under the mail.
- did they have flat round shields or convex round shield
- should i get a spatha as a sword
- where can i find these item's

Dave

Bump! Dave, how is your project going?

Best,

Lucianus

[AlexV]

-No helmets or chainmail remains known from this/our region.

Is Cologne too far outside the region?

Colognia 's tomb is arround 540, maybe so far in chronology for an 470'salian, with all what we have as times-levels (each between 15 to 30 years..)