Another Squamata Doubler thread

[M. Demetrius]

Moving a discussion from a New Product thread
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/71-prod...34269.html

This would be a better place to talk about other styles etc, and not clutter up the vendor's thread.
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Having said that,
How DO we keep the scales on the front (which point down) and the scales on the back (which also point down, but the other direction) from leaving a gap at the shoulder seam?

More importantly, how did the Ancients accomplish this task? Face it, the top row of a set of scales looks pretty rough, and is weak structurally.

[M. Val. Naso]

Bending scales a bit, so when you reach your shoulder's upper side, you only have to insert one row facing (pointing) sideways. This would be quite effective with enough padding. This is basically the idea behind the circular one.

[M.VAL.BRUTUS]

What if you used a row of scales that were a full half circle and then bent them in the middle to go down the front and the back? Maybe a scale of a different shape would be required to fit the area where regular scales just wont do the job.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Isn't that sort of the "Oyster" doubler concept?

[M.VAL.BRUTUS]

I'm not really certain what an "oyster doubler" is? :-?

[P Sertorius Scaevola]

a single ' hinged' top row will do the trick quite nicely, a flat strip of metal covering the sem of two top rows joining will do too...

[M. Demetrius]

Bending scales a bit

I'm not sure I get what you're saying. Do you have any illustrations?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I am guessing you are trying to figure how to do it wit hthe scales running in horizontal rows, as opposed to this style, which basically duplicates the lay of the scale on the shirt below it.
[attachment=6901]squamatawithdoubler.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=6902]298093_10150266799627132_4108942_n.jpg[/attachment]

[M. Val. Naso]

Demetrius: I tried referring to the practice, where during construction of the torso part, you get upwards closer and closer to the top, final line, you gradually bend scales a bit, so to make them suit you better, and with this technique, that upper, "defenceless" seam can be reduced to a minimal.

While writing this, it just kicked in, that I'm complicating a simple process

[M. Demetrius]

Yes, GJC, that's perfect. I was locked in my fuzzy brain closet to the "grain" of hamata, which doesn't curve like that. And I think I see what you're saying, too, Mark. I'll probably opt for the photo-style below, when my insanity reaches the level that I actually begin the project.
8) :woot:

[Theodosius the Great]

We may have a clue from the horse squamata from Dura. As the plates from either side of the horse reach the top (i.e. saddle) they are covered with a leather band. So, IDK how or if the plates from the sides meet or connect. Any one know?

I am guessing you are trying to figure how to do it wit hthe scales running in horizontal rows, as opposed to this style, which basically duplicates the lay of the scale on the shirt below it.

Yes, GJC, that's perfect.

Oh, I didn't know you were refering to this round weave pattern in the last thread, Demetrius. I was thinking of the chainmail doubler shaped like a cape that drapes over the shoulders and upper arms.

Anyway, I wonder if the weave pattern that GJC posted is based on any evidence or if it's hypothetical on the part of the manufacturer. Based on the relief below the Romans definately used a regular horizontal pattern. (I inverted the colors to show the pattern more clearly)



BTW, notice the doubler doesn't use a hook like hamata doublers. So, I assume it uses the traditional (i.e. Greek) tie-down method. I wish we had a closeup.

~Theo

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I see the scales also run all the way down to the hem of the tunic.

I have to admit, I did not really notice it following the line of the shirt until I received it.
I am planning on getting one made horizontally as well. However, seeing the issues with doing it horizontally, I wonder if this is all that wrong?
It would also fit the design you are discussing better than the horizontal rows too.

I think Peronis and DSC should be able to say what the evidence is on the hooks and pattern.

[M. Demetrius]

OK, we're back to square one. If the scales run "down" on the doubler in the front, then it follows that they would run "down" on the back. With that in mind, there has to be a place at which the two directions meet at the shoulder seam. So, the original question isn't really answered, namely, what did they do to cover that seam, and what method made that happen?

If < equals "one scale going on the front of the doubler"
and > equals "one scale going on the back of the doubler",
then seen from above, the question might be rendered this way:

<<<<>>>>
<<<<>>>>
<<<<>>>>

So what happens at the direction-change point? A couple or three rows running from the neck toward the shoulder?

<<<<^^^>>>>
<<<<^^^>>>>
<<<<^^^>>>> :?:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I think you are complicting it Dave! They could well just run up over the shoulder, back t ofront, no direction change?

Also, look at the neck scales, they follow the neckhole ....so whats to say this is an accurate depiction at all?

[M. Demetrius]

So the scales on the back of the doubler would have their points up?
:? :errr: