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Mons Graupius Cavalry Question
#1
In regard to the battle of Mons Graupius, I am puzzled by the division among historians concerning the number of reserve cavalry used by Agricola to attack the Caledonians in the flank and rear. One school has the reserve cavalry at four squadrons and the other school at four alae. Looking at the Loeb edition I have available it reads “Agricola quatuor equitum alas;” and is translated as four squadrons of cavalry. But my Cassell’s Latin dictionary has equitum as meaning either a turma or ala. From this I gather the difference between four squadrons and four alae is the historian’s personal choice? Am I right in thinking this way?

Four squadrons number 120 men and four alae around 2000 men. If the Caledonians were trying to outflank the Romans on both Roman flanks (left and right), this would allocate two squadrons to attack each Caledonian flank or two alae per Caledonian flank. If the Roman reserve cavalry was only attacking one Caledonian flank I still think four squadrons is too small, whereas four alae would do the job.

The account by Tacitus highlights there was a debate between the staff officers and Agricola about the Roman deployment with the staff officers wanting to deploy the legions in the same line as the auxiliary infantry. Agricola is against this and my translation of Tacitus believes Agricola’s deployment would be disproportionate. I have interpreted this to mean one of the lines, either the legions or the auxiliary infantry will be shorter or longer than the other line. What I have found is the deployment system used by the Romans is based on the frontage of a legion in its standard deployment. This means the Romans have calculated how many cavalry squadrons can fit within the frontage of a legion. For example, at Cannae Paullus would know that the frontage of his army both infantry and cavalry was equivalent to 36 legions. By doubling his depth, the frontage would be equivalent to 18 legions. It’s actually a square measuring system and is simple and very effective. So theoretically a commander can assign those units in a square different deployment arrangements, or even have one unit cover two squares if need be. This system can tell what the standard frontage and depth of a cavalry squadron should be. I’ve applied the Roman deployment system to the 8000 auxiliary infantry at Mons Graupius and it strongly points towards them belonging to cohors equitata miliariae. This means a large part of the 3000 cavalry also belong to those auxiliary cohors equitata miliariae.

The deployment arrangement I have ended up with has two lines, the second line consists of two legions each flanked by two alae and the remainder of the cavalry are deployed on the flanks of the auxiliary infantry. I believe the cavalry deployed on the flanks of the auxiliary infantry are the ones mentioned frontally attacking the Caledonians. Even with the auxiliary infantry extended, the auxiliary line has a shorter frontage than the second line. As the staff officers wanted to deploy the legions with the auxiliary infantry this indicates the depth must be the same as the auxiliary infantry and this rules out the legions being core legions (not full legions). From this I believe Agricola wanted his first line to be shorter in order to tempt the Caledonian reserve sections to come down the hill and attack the first line in the flank.

If I reverse this deployment and have only four squadrons in reserve it just looks wrong as the strike power is extremely whimsical, plus the Romans have too much cavalry in the first line. However, if it can be proven to me that “quatuor equitum” does categorically mean squadron then its back to the drawing board for me.
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#2
Sorry I put this in the wrong category and I don't know how to move it.
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#3
moved!
Macedon
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George C. K.
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#4
The bit you've quoted, quattuor equitum alas, literally means "four alae of cavalry." I think the translator was using the word squadron loosely.

To clarify, alas is just a different form of the word alae, the accusative, which is used here because it's the direct object of a verb, like the difference between our words "who" and "whom."

Equitum is the genitive plural of eques, meaning "of cavalrymen." I don't know what edition of Cassell's you have, but mine doesn't define equitum as a turma or ala.
Jason

Nil igitur mors est ad nos neque pertinet hilum,
quandoquidem natura animi mortalis habetur.
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#5
Quote:In regard to the battle of Mons Graupius, I am puzzled by the division among historians concerning the number of reserve cavalry used by Agricola to attack the Caledonians in the flank and rear. One school has the reserve cavalry at four squadrons and the other school at four alae.
"Squadron" is just the standard translation of ala, just as "troop" is the standard translation of turma.

You really need this book. Wink
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#6
Quote:......."Squadron" is just the standard translation of ala, just as "troop" is the standard translation of turma.........

I'm curious if anyone knows why that is? The latter is quite reasonable turmae=troop

But whilst, these days and back to pre-Napoleonic, squadrons are indeed normally made up of troops and whilst I'm of the related view that the 16 & 24 turma ala isn't quite right for similar reasons; wouldn't 'regiment' (or even 'battalion') have been better?

Why does it seem that translators use 'squadron'?
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#7
Yep.. they do so also in Greek texts. Translators are usually very unskilled in military terminology and so tend to oversimplify things. Words like "squadron", "troop", "regiment", "battalion" etc are used veeeery liberally and so should always be checked. In my opinion, a translator should always use the original word in such matters but...
Macedon
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George C. K.
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#8
Quote:Translators are usually very unskilled in military terminology and so tend to oversimplify things.
Depends on the translator!


Quote:In my opinion, a translator should always use the original word in such matters but...
Depends on the intended readership (imho). I find it tiresome when so-called "popular" works use a lot of technical jargon. Ala, in particular, is a difficult word to use untranslated; we can easily write about "cohorts" (= cohortes), because that's a well-known English word, but "alas" (for alae) just looks wrong.
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#9
Quote:Depends on the translator!

Of course, that's why I wrote "usually". Certain exceptions of course exist but are all too rare and their work very specifically targeted.


Quote:Depends on the intended readership (imho). I find it tiresome when so-called "popular" works use a lot of technical jargon. Ala, in particular, is a difficult word to use untranslated; we can easily write about "cohorts" (= cohortes), because that's a well-known English word, but "alas" (for alae) just looks wrong.

I give you that children books should not be really judged as to how accurate the translation is but in serious works, where the translator himself has devoted countless hours, months, even years of work, it is a pity to try and translate things even we could not easily and with certainty translate and in the process spoil it for everyone... This general trend of finding a word to translate everything in plain English is responsible for so many misunderstandings that I have lost count of their number and in my opinion needlessly so. Why should I translate an attack with a machaera as an attack with a sword or a cutlass? Why not translate that it was an attack with a machaera or a machaera sword and make my work useful for those who are interested in these things? In effect, the translators are at the same time presenting a battle from their own, usually untrained, eyes and make it a mess for us. It is a really difficult matter to even know the meaning of many military terms and very tricky to apply them correctly, so a Lacedaemonian lochos might be a small unit or a mora, depends on the writer, and then the readers take the wrong idea. I guess that the average Joe or Jane reading Herodot to impress their friends could not care less, but still, as far as translations go, military terminology is knowledge that very few translators possess and make its usage as research material almost useless without direct juxtaposition of the original. And of course, most of those interested in or directly researching ancient warfare (even Greeks, sadly) do not know ancient Greek and produce theories, articles, use the said translations in books and make things even worse. Imagine a translation of a text with political offices that would follow the same rule... "The Roman MPs voted that two divisions be sent under the one of the prime ministers to Spain" This is how most translations of military texts sound to my ears... However, here we would use senators, consuls, legions.

As for ala, I would love it if they just wrote 3 alae / 3 ala units / 3 ala squadrons. Any of these translations would make it clear that these were alae and not turmae, for example. The same problem we have with the Greek oulamos, ile, hipparchia etc. Now... whenever a javelin is thrown we have to look for the original and see what kind of a javelin it was... whenever a spear is used we never know of what type. Were those long spears sarisae, xysta, or just makra dorata?

Don't get me wrong, I know that not all (OK, maybe only some...) are interested in military matters, but we are, and like the self-centered bastard I am, I hate it that things in the world do not revolve around my personal needs and wishes... :twisted: :twisted:
Macedon
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George C. K.
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#10
I have to agree, a good example was where we were dicussing Renatus' description of Aetius, and had to go back and see if it was Lancaea or Contus
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#11
Has this the makings of the "Boudica" thread.... :evil:
Kevin
Kevin
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#12
Quote:Has this the makings of the "Boudica" thread.... :evil:
Kevin

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Wash your mouth out!!
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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#13
Does this estimtate of 500 riders for an ala or "wing" hold for the Dominate during the 4th century?
Is there any table that just shows, Late Army groupings e.g. squadron=, ala= turma= cohort=, etc?
Everything I find referring to the Notitia Dignitatum for late unit sizes warns that even these estimates were all "paper strength."
Thanks for any input,
Milo
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#14
Quote:...but "alas" (for alae) just looks wrong.

Alas, alas does look wrong.

@Antiochus

Your confusion about the Latin terms is understandable, since even good Latin dictionaries will have no entries for "alas" or "equitum," as they only list the principal forms of the word. You may find this online Lewis & Short dictionary to be helpful, since it has a word study tool. For example, if you type in "alas," it will return nothing, but if you then click on the word study tool option it will show you the possible words of which "alas" may be an inflected form.

Cassell's is usually the first dictionary I grab off my shelf, and if that proves insufficient I'll pull out the weightier (in more ways than one) OLD, but if I'm sitting at my increasingly obsolete desktop machine, that L&S site is my go-to dictionary.
Jason

Nil igitur mors est ad nos neque pertinet hilum,
quandoquidem natura animi mortalis habetur.
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#15
Quote:
Macedon post=336819 Wrote:In my opinion, a translator should always use the original word in such matters but...
Depends on the intended readership (imho). I find it tiresome when so-called "popular" works use a lot of technical jargon. Ala, in particular, is a difficult word to use untranslated; we can easily write about "cohorts" (= cohortes), because that's a well-known English word, but "alas" (for alae) just looks wrong.
I'm with Macedon on this one. Trying to find an English word for a Latin term which has no precise English equivalent is almost bound to lead to misunderstanding. In my opinion, Latin technical terms should be rendered in the nominative singular or plural as appropriate and explained in a glossary at the end of the work.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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