Scale sleeves

[Nathan Ross]

Several depictions of later legionaries show scale hauberks with long sleeves - would these have been integral to the 'torso' in the manner of mail armour (which would surely be a bit stiff), or were they attached in some way (laced, perhaps, like cataphract armour)? <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

A good question!<br>
I personally tend to think that there is a lot of 'artistic convention' on those long-sleeved scale shirts, but experience has taught me to restrain the words 'absurd' or 'nonsense' to the bare minimum.<br>
The people from Quinta (at South Shields) have experimented with laced scale sleeves and they are probably the most indicated to tell us about the results.<br>
In any case, I think that it is difficult to surpase elbow lenght with a scale sleeve...<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Sassanid]

Hi,<br>
<br>
Based on what I have seen with Quinta’s scale experiments, I would have to concur with Aitor. Integral sleeves, I believe are unlikely. We certainly don’t use them. Long sleeves are possible, but how useful they would have been in battle, due to the flexibility problem is debateable.<br>
<br>
Andrew<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sassanid@romanarmytalk>Sassanid</A> at: 8/14/04 5:44 pm<br></i>

[Gregg]

Nathan - which depictions are you referring to? A couple of years ago I was doing research into late Roman and early medieval depictions of scale armor, and I don't remember seeing any Roman depictions of long-sleeved scale armor at all (and by sleeves I assume we all understand that I am not referring to full “tubeâ€ÂÂ

[Nathan Ross]

Quote:</em></strong><hr>Nathan - which depictions are you referring to?<hr><br>
<br>
Aha, now you've put me on the spot! In fact, most of the depictions I was thinking of are from reliefs or other 'pictures' - notably the arch of Constantine, which has cavalry in full-sleeved scale (although it also has <em>horses</em>in full scale, which argues for 'artistic licence' - however, see below...) and, IIRC, the arch of Diocletian - I believe there's an illustration from the latter in Southern&Dixon's 'Late Roman Army', showing a legionary in full-sleeved scale. There's the Piazza Armerina mosaic, which shows either full or partial sleeves (picture posted by Robert from another thread):<br>
<br>
<img src="http://www.fectio.org.uk/groep/triconchos.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
One point about these images is that portraying all that scale - especially <em>carving</em>it into stone, is rather diffcult - why go to the trouble if the scales stopped at the shoulder?<br>
<br>
As for reconstructions, as noted above, the Quinta group have full sleeves on their scale armour, which are apparently laced on - I can't get their website to load, but this is a picture from it, which I hope they won't mind me posting here as an example:<br>
<br>
<img src="http://www.quintagallorum.co.uk/index_files/image018.jpg" style="border:0;"/> <p></p><i></i>

[Mithras]

Try this URL: www.quintagallorum.co.uk/<br>
<br>
I'm a new member, and haven't actually worn the scale. If you check the site, you can see the sleeves being laced on (which I've done).<br>
<br>
THey seem to work fine. <p></p><i></i>

[Gregg]

Nathan –<br>
<br>
Now this is getting interesting. But I should first define my terms, so we don’t misunderstand each other. When I say long-sleeved, I’m generally referring to flaps or sleeves that terminate about at the wrist. By short-sleeved I mean anything that terminates around the elbow. By that definition the Piazza Armerina soldiers you posted would have short-sleeved armor, as the armor seems to terminate just below the elbow (though the arms seem a bit stumpy).<br>
<br>
Regarding the arch of Constantine, the soldiers of Maxentius being overthrown at the battle of the Milvian Bridge are shown wearing short-sleeved scale cuirasses. I don’t remember ever seeing any horses wearing armor on the Arch of Constantine, though it’s possible I need to look a little closer at the photos. Depictions of horses in armor are extremely rare in the ancient world, and I must say I’d feel quite the fool if I missed a Roman one. Are you possibly thinking of Trajan’s column?<br>
<br>
The two infantrymen supposedly from the Arch of Diocletian are an interesting case. There is an illustration of these same two figures in the Osprey book “Late Roman Infantryman 236-565 ADâ€ÂÂ

[John Maddox Roberts]

The Galeria Borghese mosaic shows gladiators wearing full-length i.e. shoulder-to-wrist manicae of scale. Since several other types of manicae are shown in the mosaic - fabric or leather, mail and segmentata, it seems that the artist was careful to distinguish the scale armor from the others. The overall crudity of the mosaic makes judgment chancy, though. <p></p><i></i>

[Nathan Ross]

Gregg-<br>
<br>
Looking again at the Arch of Constantine, I don't see armoured horses - I was thinking of Trajan's arch, it seems! . However, there are clearly men in full-sleeved scale cuirasses. Check out this picture (go to 'larger image'):<br>
<br>
[url=http://sights.seindal.dk/photo/8182,s299.html" target="top]Battle of Milvian Bridge[/url]<br>
<br>
As for the Arch of Diocletian, I tend to trust the reconstruction with the men in scale <em>and</em> mail, if only because it seems more exact! I also found a drawing of soldiers from the arch of Galerius (296AD) which has very clear scale-armoured soldiers - again, long sleeves. Interestingly, despite the Galerian reliefs being in Thessalonika, these men are equipped almost identically to the 'Diocletian' soldiers, and carry their shields just like the troops on the Constantinian arch, arguing for a definite late third century 'look'. I <em>think</em> I can make out a scale-armoured figure on one of damaged sections of the Severan arch at Leptis Magna as well, which if it's what I think it is has, again, full sleeves (both the Galerian and Severan reliefs are shown in Donald Strong's 'Roman Art').<br>
<br>
About these 'flap' sleeves - it strikes me that hanging a flap of scale from the shoulder would not be a great deal of use! Unless the arm was held straight downwards, it would offer no protection and would be a pointless weight to carry around. The alternative, therefore, would be to have a long flap that could be laced to the arm in some way, creating a kind of 'false sleeve' which would bend with the arm while still being flexible (the ties or laces along the inside of the arm expanding and contracting as the arm bends) - this is difficult to describe, but hopefully you get what I mean! This, then, is similar to the 'Quinta' design, but with the laces running along the length of the arm rather than at the shoulder. Again, it's not a perfect solution, but as a hypothesis might it work?<br>
<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=nathanross@romanarmytalk>Nathan Ross</A> at: 8/21/04 12:16 am<br></i>

[Anonymous]

Sorry about all this. I tried to make a ring mail suit but I could not get the hang of it. Therefore I opted for scale. I was shown some examples which were small and thin so I started to make the suit without arms using scales of 13 mm wide and 20 mm long on average, plenty of smaller scales got thrown in. When I had finished the main body I decided it would be nice to have some sleeves. I was mad enough to make them long sleeves. At this point I was influenced by the Dura pictures for lenght and I decided after consulting with the acedemics in the group just to tie them on with leather lace. They are full tubes. Scale size the same as main body. This proved ideal. I also viewed it as an experiment to see if it would work and yes it did, very flexable.<br>
<br>
Right now I am constructing a suit with full sleeves with the sleeves not separated. I'm going to make them curve over the shoulder and down to the arms. I'm using 9 mm wide by 15 mm long brass scales 0.25 to 0.3 mm thick. And since I make them by hand I make lots of mistakes and end up producing some 6, 7, and 8 mm wide scales. I can not afford to not use them so I mix them in, even more flexable. The smaller the better.<br>
<br>
They give plenty of protection against spear thrusts and light glancing blows. Also good for skinning people's faces when elbowing them up close.<br>
<br>
The one in the photo I made flat using larger scales. This one is laced up on the inside to the wrist. I was still surprised how flexable it was as Bill used it while fighting once, quick movement, bent arms, thrusting and slashing with no hinderance. <p></p><i></i>

[Nathan Ross]

Paul - no apology necessary! All this time, everyone's been assuming that scale sleeves would be too inflexible to be effective, and it takes somebody to actually build some in order to discover that the opposite is true...<br>
<br>
Do you have any pictures of this new cuirass, or is it still 'in bits'? A few more pictures of 'Quinta' would be good anyway - as I said, I can't seem to load the pictures on the website - I keep being asked to 'enable vector graphics' or somesuch, which my PC refuses to do. My problem, I know, but it's annoying all the same! <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

My new project is in bits. I have a pile of wired up scales and a tub of scales. The cloth is all sewn with a quarter of the back covered in rows of scales.<br>
<br>
If you e mail me I'll hunt out photos for you.<br>
<br>
[email protected] <p></p><i></i>

[Gregg]

Nathan -<br>
<br>
Actually, the scale cuirasses worn by the soldiers on both the Arch of Galerius and the Arch of Constantine are short-sleeved, though you have to see a good close-up photo of these monuments to make that out. Many of the figures on the Arch of Galerius are damaged, however all of those that are not are clearly wearing short sleeved scale cuirasses. None of the photos I have of the Arch of Galerius figures were scanning very well, and I despaired of proof until I came across a drawing of one of the less damaged figures in Robinson:<br>
<br>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ZorchG/ArchGalerius.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
All the soldiers being overthrown at the Milvian Bridge on the Arch of Constantine are wearing short sleeved scale cuirasses over long-sleeved tunics. Here are some photos of a couple of the figures:<br>
<br>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ZorchG/ArchConstantine1.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ZorchG/ArchConstantine2.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
There is some discoloration on the stone, which might be mistaken for scale.<br>
<br>
<br>
The four reliefs showing Severus’ Parthian campaign are badly damaged, but have been reconstructed. None of the figures of Roman soldiers are shown wearing long sleeved armor. None that I can make out, anyway. You can see drawings of the reliefs here:<br>
<br>
http://www.livius.org/a/italy/rome/arch ... us_fl3.gif
<br>
<br>
http://www.livius.org/a/italy/rome/arch ... us_fr3.gif
<br>
<br>
http://www.livius.org/a/italy/rome/arch ... us_cl3.gif
<br>
<br>
http://www.livius.org/a/italy/rome/arch ... us_cr3.gif
<br>
<br>
<br>
I have a couple of problems with accepting the Arch of Diocletian figures as depicting long sleeved scale armor. First, it’s not clear where Dixon got the extra details, since Dixon’s version was “redrawn from Coulston.â€ÂÂ

[Nathan Ross]

Gregg - nice pictures, and very convincing! I'd not seen either of the figures so close up, and on examination it seems that you are indeed right about the short sleeves - it's a little marginal in some cases, but it does look like one of the Constantinian figures actually has the cuff-clavi (correct term escapes me) of his tunic portrayed, so I'm prepared to bow to your interpretation! In fact, the Severan arch I was talking about was the one at Leptis Magna, not Rome, but the picture I saw of it was not at all clear.<br>
<br>
Is there any chance that you, or somebody else, could post up the drawings of the Arch of Diocletian figures, for contrast?<br>
<br>
Paul - my email isn't working at present, so I'll have to pass up your kind offer - I'd be interested in seeing the new cuirass when it's done though - hopefully by then I'll be able to access the Quinta site properly! <p></p><i></i>