LR belt construction

[Anonymous]

Ave!<br>
<br>
This question is mostly directed to Aitor. I saw your belt in this thread p200.ezboard.com/fromanar...1239.topic<br>
and have couple of questions.<br>
<br>
I assume you used a fairly thin leather (about 1mm or so?) and that it is made of several layers, hence the stitching. How layers did you use and how did you handle the edges? Is the outer layer folded over and a inner layer brought up almost to the edge? What did you use to dye it, its got a great color. Sorry I've got so many questions but I'm here to learn. Also any book or journal references you be willing to share would be really appreciated.<br>
<br>
Thanks so much for your time,<br>
<br>
Gaius Septimus Lucianus <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Hi Gaius,<br>
The leather belt was made by a professional belt maker. It has two layers, the outer one is cow and thicker than 1 mm. The inner one is horse and is firly thinner (Romans didn't seem to have used horse leather but we have to cut expenses!)<br>
No layer is folded over the other one (I asked the man if it would work and he told me that if the edges of both layers are properly tooled, the sides of the belt would look fine either, what has happened to the date.)<br>
I'm sorry but I cannot offer you any information on the dye. Anyway, you can be sure that it was not the one Romans used...<br>
Books on late belts, pfeew! As far as I know, I f we leave aside some hints on general books like B&C or Feugère, the rest is in German, hard to trace and rather outdated (By Bullinger or Böhme. Sommer is useful as a catalogue but the most you can get of his text is a tremendous headache!)<br>
I'm leaving in a couple of hours for our Roman festival I'll return to the drab routine on Monday<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Hi Aitor,<br>
<br>
Thanks so much for your reply! This is very helpful to understand what I'm seeing in the photo.<br>
<br>
> The leather belt was made by a professional belt maker.<br>
<br>
It is a really nice piece of work and looks great. (Your knife is really beautiful as well.)<br>
<br>
> It has two layers, the outer one is cow and thicker than 1 mm. The inner one is horse and is firly thinner (Romans didn't seem to have used horse leather but we have to cut expenses!)<br>
<br>
Ah, I think I know what's going on with it now. What is the total thickness of the belt? One of my pet peeves is when reenactors use really thick pieces of leather for their belts. Thinner leather was certainly the case in later periods such as the Middle Ages and Renaissance and I'm not surprised to see it in a earlier period as well.<br>
<br>
> I'm sorry but I cannot offer you any information on the dye. Anyway, you can be sure that it was not the one Romans used...<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> Books on late belts, pfeew! As far as I know, If we leave aside some hints on general books like B&C or Feugère, the rest is in German,<br>
<br>
That's what I've found. I sure wish I'd stuck with those high school German classes.<br>
<br>
> hard to trace and rather outdated (By Bullinger or Böhme. Sommer is useful as a catalogue but the most you can get of his text is a tremendous headache!)<br>
<br>
I've got Bullinger out from the library right now and have had out Sommer as well. They've been useful for looking at how the fittings were made. I'd like to try to make some of those large square buckle and fittings sets at some point. I'll have to get Bohme, I see that we have it in the library. (I work for a major US university that has a very extensive library system. Its a good perk.)<br>
<br>
> I'm leaving in a couple of hours for our Roman festival I'll return to the drab routine on Monday<br>
<br>
Have fun! And thanks for your message, I really appreciate you taking the time.<br>
<br>
Gaius<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

What is the evidence that ALL Roman belts were stitched in layers? Certainly some of them might have been a single piece? I would have to see evidence that every remnant of Roman belts recovered were in layers before I would believe that theory. <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Avete,<br>
I'm still trying to return to everyday's routine. We've had a great time at our festival, with excellent weather!<br>
As far as I know, there are remains from a fifth century belt in Germany with preserved parts of leather, showing an interesting pattern of decorative stitching (unfortunately I don't know details about the findspot or its publication )<br>
There is a nearly completely preserved leather belt at the Arles museum. It is not military and belonged to a VIth century French saint (The priests used at that time a copy of the late Roman office belt). It has a nice ivory buckle and border stitching for the two layers.<br>
What do you have against two-layered belts, Lucius? I know that you've done your good deal of leather working...<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

Hi Aitor!<br>
I don't have anything against the stitched belts, I just find it hard to believe that all of them were done in that method, that's all. I think they are very nice, but I also believe that they used plain leather straps for belts, in just one piece. I don't have proof for this, but they are much easier to manufacture than the stitched variety.<br>
I'm glad your festival was nice, and that you all had a good time! <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Hi Aitor,<br>
<br>
> I'm still trying to return to everyday's routine. We've had a great time at our festival, with excellent weather!<br>
<br>
That's great, where was the festival held?<br>
<br>
> As far as I know, there are remains from a fifth century belt in Germany with preserved parts of leather, showing an interesting pattern of decorative stitching (unfortunately I don't know details about the findspot or its publication )<br>
There is a nearly completely preserved leather belt at the Arles museum. It is not military and belonged to a VIth century French saint (The priests used at that time a copy of the late Roman office belt). It has a nice ivory buckle and border stitching for the two layers.<br>
<br>
Do we know what kind of leather those belts were made of? The belt from Arles sounds very cool, is it on display currently? I might have a chance to see it next spring because I'm planning a vacation in that area. Are there any other museums or sites around there that you would recommend?<br>
<br>
Thanks again for all the good information,<br>
<br>
Gaius Septimus Lucianus<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Lucius and Gaius,<br>
Many thanks for your good wishes for our festival!<br>
The Ludi Veleienses were hels at our archaeological Roman site of [url=http://www.veleia.com" target="top]Iruña[/url] (former city of Veleia), near Vitoria (Spain)<br>
My information on the German belt with preserved leather is really scanty. I would be really thankful if somebody would oint me towards its publication.<br>
The French belt is kept at the Museum of the Gaulish-Roman Civilization, in Arles. As far as I know, it is unpublished and it hasn't been scientifically examined. Moreover, it is still kept in the same folded condition as when it was a sealed relic kept inside a church...<br>
Gaius, Provence is full of beautiful Roman remains. It would be hard to enumearate all interesting places but Arles and Nimes should be your main target point (not forgetting the beautiful theatre and triumph arch at Orange!)<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Chariovalda]

I've been told by some expert - well, Holger Ratsdorf, actually - that "ancient" cattle - that is, before the modern milkmachines on four legs - produce "denser" (stronger) and thinner leather, a result of smaller size and slower growth (skin doesn't expand as much nor as fast as with modern cattle). And that "stitched" belts of two layers are very, very strong.<br>
<br>
Another thing: given that metal was pretty valuable in those days, I feel it's rather likely the owner of such a belt would have gone for a two-layer, stitched belt anyway. Takes more time and skill, yes, but the main value probably lay in the metalwork anyway. Single-strip leather may perhaps have been used in more simple belts (basically just a buckle and a strap-end, if even that)?<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Hi Aitor,<br>
<br>
> Many thanks for your good wishes for our festival!<br>
The Ludi Veleienses were hels at our archaeological Roman site of Iruña (former city of Veleia), near Vitoria (Spain)<br>
<br>
I saw your post about it on another thread and boy am I envious! It sounded like it was great fun.<br>
<br>
> My information on the German belt with preserved leather is really scanty. I would be really thankful if somebody would point me towards its publication.<br>
<br>
I certainly have not been studying this subject for as long as you or many other people on this list, but it surprises me that there hasn't been very much real recent scholarship on LR belts and their hardware. Do you think it comes from a lack of interest, lack or material or what? Just musing...<br>
<br>
> The French belt is kept at the Museum of the Gaulish-Roman Civilization, in Arles. As far as I know, it is unpublished and it hasn't been scientifically examined. Moreover, it is still kept in the same folded condition as when it was a sealed relic kept inside a church...<br>
<br>
Wow, again I'm surprised that someone hasn't published it. It sounds like an amazing artifact and treasure trove of information.<br>
<br>
> Gaius, Provence is full of beautiful Roman remains. It would be hard to enumearate all interesting places but Arles and Nimes should be your main target point (not forgetting the beautiful theatre and triumph arch at Orange!)<br>
<br>
We had been thinking about staying further northwest in the Perigord but now I'm lobbying for striking out further south and east. I'd dearly love to see that belt in Arles and my traveling companion would like to visit Pau so I'm hoping we can work out some sort of a compromise.<br>
<br>
Gaius <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

> I've been told by some expert - well, Holger Ratsdorf, actually - that "ancient" cattle - that is, before the modern milkmachines on four legs - produce "denser" (stronger) and thinner leather, a result of smaller size and slower growth (skin doesn't expand as much nor as fast as with modern cattle).<br>
<br>
I could believe that. Its rather like wood from trees from old growth forests. It grows slowly in competation with the rest of the stand for light and nutrients and it's rings are smaller and denser.<br>
<br>
> Another thing: given that metal was pretty valuable in those days, I feel it's rather likely the owner of such a belt would have gone for a two-layer, stitched belt anyway. Takes more time and skill, yes, but the main value probably lay in the metalwork anyway.<br>
<br>
Yes, and a stitched belt also gives another avenue for decoration. Its owuldn't surprise me if the surfaces not covered in plates, propellers, etc. were further filled in with decorative stitching.<br>
<br>
> Single-strip leather may perhaps have been used in more simple belts (basically just a buckle and a strap-end, if even that)?<br>
<br>
I think its a case of using the appropriate materials for the item. Expenisve belt components would seem to call for a a good quality belt to hold them.<br>
<br>
Gaius<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Gaius,<br>
If you reach Pau, then you will be near the Basque country, where I live (at the Spanish side, not the French one)<br>
Anyway, be careful, distances seem always small on a map, but not so when you're driving on them!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Aitor,<br>
<br>
> If you reach Pau, then you will be near the Basque country, where I live (at the Spanish side, not the French one).Anyway, be careful, distances seem always small on a map, but not so when you're driving on them!<br>
<br>
Yes, especially when one is driving not driving on superhighways. Our trip is all very much in the planning stages at this point. We're pinpointing placed we'd like to see and deciding if its really feasible to get to them all on this trip.<br>
<br>
Gaius <p></p><i></i>