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Hey guys, another newbie post but I didn't see a topic like this while using the forum search so I decided to make one. I recently bought and had delivered to me a basic Pompeii gladius, baldric, and tunic from Soul of the Warrior. While I'm waiting for the caligae to be made, I tried the tunic and I'm wondering how do I make this huge thing fit! I'm using some basic twine as a starter belt to see how to lift the tunic above my knees and finding it hard to get it to uniformly "billow" around the "belt".
I also have a problem on how to properly pin it with the fibulae as whenever I practice how to pin it I always bunch it up awkwardly. Any special way I should fold it?
I know I should probably work with it more and just find a way that looks right to me but I'm worried that I may not do it accurately as someone from a legion would have done it.
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You don't use a Fibula to pin a tunic...
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Quote:You don't use a Fibula to pin a tunic...
And you don't point it out this way... You should also say what it's used for, or your message doesn't contribute much.
Hi Joe!
A fibula is normally not used to pin on a tunic, but is used for cloaks (e.g. for a sagum, a large rectangular cloak) or for scarves around your neck (the focale). It is very normal that a tunic feels or looks very odd when you wear one for the first time - it is (and should be) a very large and loose garment compared to what we're used to.
You can try to pull the fabric through your 'belt' evenly all around, or you can try to pull it up mostly at the sides - this way you more or less get what are called "Rhineland plaits" (someone please correct me if "plaits" isn't the correct term) as seen on several tombstones from the Rhine limes.
If the neck opening is very large (which I doubt) you could grasp some of the fabric at the back of the neck opening and tie a string around it. This can be seen on Roman reliefs - if I could find a picture, I'd post one, but unfortunately I didn't find any. Someone else may be?
May be you could post a picture of yourself wearing it, if you'd like; we might be able to do a couple of suggestions.
Valete,
Titvs Statilivs Castvs - Sander Van Daele
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Quote:Magister Militum Flavius Aetius post=359905 Wrote:You don't use a Fibula to pin a tunic...
And you don't point it out this way... You should also say what it's used for, or your message doesn't contribute much.
Hi Joe!
A fibula is normally not used to pin on a tunic, but is used for cloaks (e.g. for a sagum, a large rectangular cloak) or for scarves around your neck (the focale). It is very normal that a tunic feels or looks very odd when you wear one for the first time - it is (and should be) a very large and loose garment compared to what we're used to.
You can try to pull the fabric through your 'belt' evenly all around, or you can try to pull it up mostly at the sides - this way you more or less get what are called "Rhineland plaits" (someone please correct me if "plaits" isn't the correct term) as seen on several tombstones from the Rhine limes.
If the neck opening is very large (which I doubt) you could grasp some of the fabric at the back of the neck opening and tie a string around it. This can be seen on Roman reliefs - if I could find a picture, I'd post one, but unfortunately I didn't find any. Someone else may be?
May be you could post a picture of yourself wearing it, if you'd like; we might be able to do a couple of suggestions.
I can post pics tomorrow, was a busy day today.
As for the fibulae being used on a tunic, I pulled this from Legion XXIV MA's site; "FIBULAE Brooches or pins known as Fibulae were used to pin shut tunics and cloaks. ".
And actually Titus the neck opening is so large it falls off my shoulders if I don't slide it to one side! I thought maybe this was an error on my part for the way I was wearing it but the only solution I could come up with would be if I just pinned or sewed it shut.
Once I take some pictures tomorrow I can show you how large the neck opening is!
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Joe Quinn wrote: I tried the tunic and I'm wondering how do I make this huge thing fit!
Hello Joe
Looking at the tunics on that website they actually appear to be on the small size when compared with surviving Roman tunics. It also seems that Roman tunics in the early imperial period tended to be rectangular in shape rather than 'T' shaped. They were sleeveless but 'sleeves' form when worn because of the size.
The neck hole is large and may indeed have been closed by brooches. There are enough found on nearly all Roman sites. However one certain way of closing the neck opening was to gather the material behind at the base of the neck and tie it in a knot.
Another problem with modern tunics is that they tend to use material that is much too thick so it does not fold easily. Romans often wore more than one tunic and cloak in colder weather so bare that in mind otherwise you won't be able to move if the material is too thick! It is also difficult to manage when the size is larger if the material is thick.
Modern cloaks too are often smaller than the original garments mainly because it is very expensive now to get that much material and people seem less inclined to spend money on tunics and cloaks when there are so many other sharp and shiny things to buy!
If you need any further information I give plans and sizes in my book 'Roman Military Dress' available via my website, http://gsillustrator.co.uk
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
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Quote:The neck hole is large and may indeed have been closed by brooches.
Didn't know this, thanks. Is there any proof for it, or is it an educated guess?
Valete,
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I was going to say, what's the evidence for that? Because it doesn't make sense to wear brooches under chainmail or segmentata: that would hurt like hell
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It is impossible to know for sure how to fit the surviving evidence together. Virtually every Roman site turns up brooches and this is especially the case with military sites. However, the survival of clothing in those same places is rare to say the least and in Britain and Germany pretty much unheard of. Therefore a certain amount of interpretation and careful assumption must normally be a part of our reconstruction of the clothing worn by soldiers. It is only rarely that clothing or clear and unambiguous evidence for clothing survives, and it may be important to reflect that there is no guarantee that either the early second century AD clothing found at Nahal Hever or the clear depictions of clothing from Dura, or even the clothing seen in the Rhineland sculptures was typical of all parts of the empire at those times.
On that last point, I have sometimes wondered whether the 'off the shoulder' tunics shown on Trajan's Column might be Greek style khitons, rather than Roman style tunics. Perhaps Graham might have thoughts on this.
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Sander wrote: The neck hole is large and may indeed have been closed by brooches.
Didn't know this, thanks. Is there any proof for it,
Just a lot and lot of brooches! On the tombstone of Minutius Lorarius from Legio Martia found at Padova in Italy, there is what appears to be a button at the neck of the tunic in front below the neck, although it could be a brooch.
Unfortunately our best evidence for clothing in Britain, France and Germany is sculptural rather than actual finds. In the Middle East it is often actual finds of clothing rather than sculpture.
The troops of the first century Rhine garrison (legionary and Auxiliary) on present evidence do not appear to be wearing the same type of tunic as their fellows in Algeria and Morocco or their immediate predecessors in Italy and France. It does not appear to be the same type of tunic as that shown worn by the legionaries on Trajan's column and in Hadrianic period sculpture and is clearly not the same tunic worn by the Auxiliaries on Trajan's Column which is much shorter and requires the addition of bracae to avoid indecent exposure!
The Rhineland sculptures are a much higher standard than those from Morocco or Algeria, so whether the lack of the exaggerated style of drapery in the latter is reflecting reality or simply a lack of ability on behalf of the sculptor is open to question. Equally frustrating is that we do not have a large corpus of contemporary sculpture from elsewhere to compare with the Rhineland group.
Furthermore while we do have complete tunics from Egypt and Israel of Hadrianic date which appear to confirm what is worn on Hadrianic sculpture and the descriptions of tunics in Roman literature, we do not have any complete clothing remains from first century Roman sites in the Rhineland which could confirm what is worn on the tombstones.
You can certainly get the off the shoulder look by using a replica of a Hadrianic period tunic based on the finds. You can also get that surplus of material under the arms as shown on the Chatsworth relief. In Roman times that tunic was probably called a tunica in the latin west and both a tunica and Khiton in the Greek speaking east.
There are a lot of terms for tunics and cloaks in Roman period literature but it is quite difficult now to marry these terms with what is found in the ground or seen on sculpture.
The closest parallels I think to the drapery found on Rhineland sculpture are those seen in Palmyrene art. Some of the Auxiliaries in the Rhineland such as Hyperanor and Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera were Eastern in origin. One remote possibility therefore is that it was an Eastern fashion taken Westward with Eastern Auxiliaries which then spread throughout the Rhine garrison. Either that or a sudden influx of Eastern sculptors! Anyone's guess really!
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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Like Graham, I believe brooches certainly had their place in the wearing of tunics, and not just by the Romans. Sarmatian and Alanic graves usually contain brooches, often of European origin. Or were these barbarians just brooch collectors? :dizzy: :unsure: :whistle:
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I think that I agree with Evan that one would not wear a fibula or any brooch to fasten a tunic they were used more for cloaks I think.
Brian Stobbs
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I do not agree with the shape or size of the neck hole of the tunic and would very much like to see the evidence that supports this.
Brian Stobbs
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Rusty has replied to me before on this forum I'm pretty sure you could ask him. The "Recruit" Gladius, plain Baldric, and Tunic are all from his shop on Soul Of The Warrior.
To fix this should I sow the neck opening by hand to be smaller? Or pin it with a brooch? Honestly it's so large I don't think pinning it with a fibulae will work.  ad:
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I would sew it up to a more realistic size for no way would it be held by any fibula or brooch of any kind.
Brian Stobbs
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