Renatus.
Where we look at that phalera plate from Trimontium it has bell caps that hold what may be rings at the back we can also see the name however that name is scratched on the inside of the back plate, for those bell caps had to be hammered into place so they cannot be going through any harness straps.
Therefore they and the name were placed there before the repousse' hand made phalera picture was put onto its back plate and also where it comes to the Lauersfort back plates shown by Maxfield the names are on all the back plates but again they have to be on the inside for they are not on the outside at all only their three rings to each phalera.
I think that from much experience and being the only one to have made the Lauersfort phalerae in there true fashion by hand worked repousse' many times, as also the only one ever to have made the Lauersfort Dish I am indeed very familiar with all the names on these items including the silver gilt dish itself.
[attachment=11548]lauD.jpg[/attachment]
Quote:Therefore they and the name were placed there before the repousse' hand made phalera picture was put onto its back plate and also where it comes to the Lauersfort back plates shown by Maxfield the names are on all the back plates but again they have to be on the inside for they are not on the outside at all only their three rings to each phalera.
Can you clarify for me? Are the names scratched on the backs of the back plate, so that they are next to the body, or on the front, so that they are covered by the repoussé work?
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
They have to be covered by the pictures and on the inside of the phalerae both situations for where we see the rings on the Lauersfort three of for each piece there is no name showing on the outer surface, and then of course on the Newstead pieces where we see those bell caps these are in effect a type of riveting so these caps are hammered down on the inside of these plates showing also the name so here again we are looking at the inside of where the phalera once was.
Those bell caps cannot have gone through any straps whatever for they are hard down against the plates and were put into the back plate before its picture was put onto it as were the rings of the Lauersfort, but why they should be hidden is another question and only come to light after the pieces have come to bits over time Maxfield is very correct about the names being on the plates but they would in their use never ever reveal that name.
That ties in with the theory (alas, I cannot remember where I read it) that the names were scratched on the backplates by the maker to designate who the intended recipient was. Presumably, this was to ensure that the correct repoussé work was attached to the appropriate backplates. After all, the maker would know who he (the maker) was and it would make little sense, if he wanted to show that he had made the pieces, to put his name in a place where no-one could see it until the phalerae were dismantled.
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Where it comes to phalerae it is becomes so strange to even imagine that these things could ever be transferable from one owner to another, and then again with the Lauersfort we have a name on the front of one of them in fact the only one it could have been put onto ( Cupid ) this name is also the same name on the Lauersfort dish.
It is my theory that this name is that of the centurian who had the honour of wearing these pieces at parade occasions and the phalerae were awarded to his unit as a whole, however the dish may well be his own private award and therefore carries the same name.
The name on the Trimontium plates is most definitely on the inside for how else could those bell caps be put there other than before the picture went onto the back plates as also this one that is of the same shape as one of the Lauersfort again with bell caps fitted before the picture.
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Given the positioning of the bell-caps, I am inclined to agree with Brian that they signify the manufacturer, as they would be on the inside of the phalera discs and would thus not be visible after assembly. I would whether the Latin form, might be intended to be not (belonging to) Domiiti Attici, but instead something like [Fabrica] Domiiti Attici (from the workshop of Domiitius Atticus). The makers of the back plates need not have been the same as the maker of the repousse fronts and there is no reason why they might not have been assembled at the latter's workshop. After all, the craftsmanship required for doing fine repousse work is far higher than the skill needed for producing flat plates.
Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
Quote:I would whether the Latin form, might be intended to be not (belonging to) Domiiti Attici, but instead something like [Fabrica] Domiiti Attici (from the workshop of Domiitius Atticus). The makers of the back plates need not have been the same as the maker of the repousse fronts and there is no reason why they might not have been assembled at the latter's workshop. After all, the craftsmanship required for doing fine repousse work is far higher than the skill needed for producing flat plates.
I agree with your latter point. Indeed, that is implicit in my last post. However, I see little point in the maker of the backplates advertising his wares on a part that was shortly to be hidden from view.
On a technical level, could you explain to me how bell caps work. It is a term that is not familiar to me.
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Renatus.
Here is a bell cap on a Roman horse bronze in my collection that has the bell cap still fitted to it and it is still raised up with leather beneath it, also a picture showing just how bell caps are made where these tiny domes are hammered out of sheet brass.
The ones on the Newstead plates are flush with the plates therefore there could never have been leather under them, so they have to be holding maybe rings at the outside opposite the name side.
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Renatus.
Here is a piece of copper alloy that I have shown in another topic it is in the Rijksmuseum van Oudheden in the Netherlands and I would consider it to maybe be a piece of scrap metal left over from making just such bell caps, in fact in the middle there are two holes that even overlap and yet two caps were even made from those areas that I have done myself in the past.
However one of the caps winds up with just a very small crescent missing from it's edge but it can still be used, overall one can see just how these caps have been hammered out all over the sheet.
[attachment=11566]bcscrap1.jpg[/attachment]
Quote:The ones on the Newstead plates are flush with the plates therefore there could never have been leather under them, so they have to be holding maybe rings at the outside opposite the name side.
It would possibly be helpful to know what the other side looks like. I don't suppose it is displayed, however, because without the names it is probably not very interesting.
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
I think I like the explanation given by Crispvs where he mentions that others may well have made the back plates and the pictures of the pieces would have been made by more artistic craftsmen, the pictures of course would be made first then the back plates have to be made to fit flush into the raised picture piece then the edges folded over to hold them there however these pictures had to be filled to prevent them from being crushed.
I don't think that pitch would have been used for in hot climates it would always be in a state of flux and not much use, there may have been some kind of wax used that would set more hard. As far as what is on the other side of those Newstead plates one would have to seek out pictures of the other side which I may be able to get from the Scottish National Museum.
Quote:the pictures of course would be made first then the back plates have to be made to fit flush into the raised picture piece then the edges folded over to hold them there
You say "of course" but could it be the other way round, the backplates made first and the reliefs made to fit them? Would that not be within the capabilities of a skilled craftsman? Presumably both craftsmen would have a good idea of what was expected of them in terms of size and design.
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Renatus.
Where I have been making phalerae now for so many years and without any arrogance I have to say that I have to consider myself the craftsman who makes not only the high relief figures and pictures for them, but also the back plates and not only that but to hang them all on their harness completed for the wearer.
Therefore the pictures have to be made first and fore most and their turned edges have to be folded over the back plates after these are made to fit flush otherwise there will be problems to fit the pictures onto them, so in fact it might well be that they did not just let any others to be involved at all with this very intricate type of work.
If you look at the earlier picture I put up for Gagan to show him how to make his back plates you can see just how flush the edge of the picture is that wraps onto the plate, and what I find is that the amount of metal for the overlap around has to be as minimum as one can get it and this way it sits down so much better without wrinkles.
Here is another picture that explains the minimum of fold over for the picture onto its back plate not much more than about 1/8th of an inch. ops have put in wrong picture that is Cupid but here we are again.
[attachment=11578]Picture116.jpg[/attachment]
Brian,
You will understand that I am not querying your craftsmanship or your expertise. I am commenting only on the evidence as I see it. Looking at the post that you refer to, I see that, in addition to the picture of the back of the phalera made by you, you also posted a picture of the Lauersfort phalerae. This included the backs of two of them and on the left-hand one you can see what appears to be the silver facing overlapping the backplate. There is considerably more overlapping than in your reproduction. It would seem to me that it would assist the maker of the facing to have the backplate made first, so that he knew what he had to work to and that he allowed himself a reasonable amount of overlap to give himself a margin for error. On the Newstead lunate phalera that you posted above, two of the bell caps (one has the cap missing) are placed right up to the edge of the piece, leaving no room for the overlap. This indicates to me that it was made with insufficient attention to the requirements of the maker of the silver facing or that he miscalculated the size of the facing to fit the backplate and that the latter had to be cut down to fit. Either way, this seems to indicate that the backplates and facings were not made with the close collaboration of their respective makers nor by one man alone.
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
With my overlap of the pictures compared to the one you mention on the original Lauersfort is neither here nor there for it is just one of those things but if you understand anything about this fold over all that metal does not hold down against the plate it is only the area near the edge that is doing the holding, then with the Newstead the fold over cannot be shown for the pictures are totally gone and those bell caps in my opinion are on the inside of the back plate along with the name therefore the view you are getting is where your looking at a phalera where its picture is now missing had there been a one the overlap would be around the other side of that plate.
The plates as well as the pictures would be made by the same man for any knowledge or experience of making these things shows that no two phalera are exactly the same and such adjustment of plate size has to be considered, where there is more overlap on the original one of the Lauersfort you mention it is where the maker has simply not trimmed down the flange of the picture that is always there while the phalera is being made but his plate had to fit the width of his picture he would not be concerned about that amount of overlap as I would also not be.
