[split] Phalanx warfare: use of the spear

[Bryan]

Weren't Iphicrates infantry reforms specifically dealing with marines?

Besides this, Macedonian sarissa didn't just push enemy away with their spear points wedged against enemy shields, that's not even possible considering that only one in four or five sarissa points would actually reach the enemy's shield wall/line. See the illustration I attached, for a sarissaphoi phalanx to be using their pikes to literally push an enemy formation away through pressure on their shields, it means only the strength of the legs and arms of the front rankers are doing all the work. The "push of pike" wasn't literal. 

And I don't think hoplites literally had pushing matches using their spears to shove against an enemy's shield, vice versa. That's a terrible method of fighting and using a spear.

No Iphicratids were an infantry type meant to keep pace with his peltasts.  They may have been inspired by marines from egypt, though I think the Thracian route more likely.

I am not sure where you got the idea of pushing with sarissa, I never said that.  What the sarissa hedge did was keep hoplites from entering othismos specifically because you cannot push against a hedge of spears.  To me the history of hoplite combat was a rock-paper-scissors game of different types of battle at different ranges.  Early hoplites surely threw spears at eachother from behind a wall of aspides much like a saxon shield wall.  They could of course converge and fight with spears and swords directly, and if othismos was something that occurred in this period, it did so then as men fought over the fallen.  By the classical period, hoplites are charging right through the beaten zone of missiles directly into spear range, a range that increases as the dory becomes the sole spear of some 8'.  When enough spears break, men move to sword, and within the reach of spears.  By the end of the 5th c, I think we see a rise in this sword phase and the event that happens often from these close in clashes that we call othismos.  Thus the deepening of ranks.  After this reaches its rediculous apex with 50 ranks, we see that the only effective counter is to give up on othismos and instead flank these deep phalanxes which are terribly vulnerable due to the limited front.  With battle being decided by flanking maneuvers using troops other than hoplites rather than head on clashes, othismos is a thing of the past and spear, or sarissa, fencing once again predominates.  The whole cycle ends nicely with Thureophoroi armed with two spears that they throw as a counter to the sarissa hedge- note that roman infantry are just a form of thureophoroi with damn good organization and a zeal for killing.

I wasn't referencing you when I mentioned pushing shields back with spears, JaM wrote it a couple pages back and he is still using that theory to support his "no shield to shield" fighting. 

With hoplites going shield to shield, can't the dory still be used with a overhand grip at the mid point?

---

and regarding Othismos, If it was really a thing, what would stop somebody from feinting a push? pushing for a brief time, then suddenly give up? that would cause other side to fall down to be beaten quite easily while they are laying on the ground... It is quite common concept even with sports where people use force to fight others.. like for example Greek-Roman Wrestling..

It takes significant coordination to perform a large scale retreat in battle. It would be hard to coordinate a single file all suddenly reversing direction while in hard contact, with a whole line, impossible. Besides, you're assuming they would be able to back off enough in such a quick manner that their enemy would fall on their faces, instead, if the movement was done in a manner that wasn't time to the split second, the opposing forces would simply stay on their feet and gain momentum in pushing as their adversaries retreat.