08-22-2016, 06:15 PM
(08-22-2016, 05:42 PM)JaM Wrote: but you dont need to do it over a whole line... even a local feint would force part of enemy line to fell... and that would be enough... and of course you can do it, you just need coordination which should be not that big problem anyway.. I'm not talking about 50 vs 50 formation with one side feinting.. im talking about let say 4rank vs 8rank with those 4 ranks feinting, let say on the far right side... its a common tactics even in today's sports so i dont see why it would not be possible back then.
Must say, i dont believe in pushing matches same way as i dont believe in a constant combat.. people are not machines, they are not able to fight constantly for long time.. once fatigue kicks in, morale drops.. in such state, you really dont want to be pushed by somebody towards danger no matter if its by one step or two.. Thats why im strong believer in A Zhmodikov work regarding luls on battlefield, and constant use of missile weapons by Roman Legionaries, and that's why i really dont see how that pushing could work, even after the initial clash with spears.. it sounds way too dangerous (for both sides) and completely prevents one side from routing... which might be quite counterproductive, because routing enemy is much easier wiped out than enemy that is "pushed into corner"
yet, im just trying to give points against this theory. Both Matthew and Lindybeige gave valid points i didnt see anybody "debunked"... but yes, i will read Paul's book when available and then will give my feedback.
The feint you describe simply cannot be done. You do not understand a crowd-like othismos. There is only a "push" as long as there is resistance. If you met me in othismos with a synchronized swim team where every rank jumped back at exactly the same moment without telegraphing the move to me, I would simply step forward as you moved. Remember, I am standing almost straight up. I won't fall over.
I find the notion that something is too dangerous for combat a bit humorous. All I have to do it threaten to do it and you run away! I also have no idea why you think othismos prevents a rout. As in all combat, the taxis breaks from the rear. I too believe in lulls in combat, though I came to the notion following Sabin. My hoplites can sit in othismos for quite a while, since they are simply leaning against each other like boxers in a clinch.
Mathew's objections to my othismos were all disproven last fall with Giannis and the group at marathon. While he wrote that the men could not generate large forces and if they did the aspis would be crushed, we generated close to half a ton and no shields or men were harmed.
