Germanic Tribes

[jbd_29349]

I have been told that in the first century AD the germanic people fought with clubs and fire hardend shafts for spears, and very few had any real weapons. I find this hard to believe. You mean to tell me that a group of men waving clubs and wooden spears wiped out Varus's three battle hardened legions in three days?

what kind of weapons did they have?

what kind of armour did they use?

what style of fighting did they use?

[kuura]

I think most of the descriptions by Germanicus of early Germanics tend to play on the bestial and down right barbaric imagery. Plus the fact these were comments made on an eve of battle speech where your hardly going to say that these guys are well over a foot taller than us, stronger and down right nasty. :twisted: To be sure, some of the lower classes probably did use clubs, a favoured weapon of the Aestii on the Baltic coast.

Regarding the Varus disaster. That whole campaign was a well planned and coordinated 'trap' with the Romans being lured piece meal into controlled killing zones. Giving the Romans lack of morale and sheer terror at this point i'm sure wooden clubs and primitive spears (if they had them) would not have changed the outcome. Plus the fact the Germanics were not the ignorant savages the Romans had been led to believe. :wink:

Weapons; Most would have the framea, a throwing spear with a small, sharp narrow head, good for piercing armour. Probably around one in ten had swords of the Celtic La Tene type augumented with captured Roman material.

Helmets and armour were rare except amongst nobles. Even by the 5th century the Germanics were noted for their dislike for armour which they considered effeminate.

Tactics; Scream at the top of ya lungs, (the barritus) starting low and increasing in volume, amplified by round , hexagonal or rectangular shields and then charge in wedge formation at the enemy, trying to cover as much ground as possible in the shortest amount of time.

Check out Osprey's Romes enemies: Germanics and Dacians by Peter Wilcox which will provide you with a basic introduction.

[Jona Lendering]

Weapons; Most would have the framea, a throwing spear with a small, sharp narrow head, good for piercing armour. Probably around one in ten had swords of the Celtic La Tene type augumented with captured Roman material.

Please note the rapid rise of the use of swords after the battle in the Teutoburg Forest.

[jbd_29349]

Why did the germanic tribes evolve at a much slower rate that the celts or gaulic tribes. When Caesar attacked Gaul the celts had iron swords, and were living in well established towns.

The germans were had no metal working skills at all. They were a nomadic and warlike people.

[jbd_29349]

The helmets of the germanic tribes. I have seen many helmets that they say are barbarian helmets with horns, wings, and such. Which ones did the germanic people wear, when they wore them. Captured helmets from the Romans and Greeks, La Tene style helments, or did they have there own style of helmet?

[Jona Lendering]

The germans were had no metal working skills at all. They were a nomadic and warlike people.

Don't be fooled by the written sources. The Germans were more capable of working iron than we would assume from sources like Tacitus. For a reconstruction of a smithy, you can visit the Archäologische Freilichtmuseum at Oerlinghausen.
[url:2v4c6hy4]http://www.afm-oerlinghausen.de/[/url]
[url:2v4c6hy4]http://www.archaeologie-online.de/Oerlinghausen/museum.htm[/url]

[kuura]

Don't be fooled by the written sources. The Germans were more capable of working iron than we would assume from sources like Tacitus.

This is true. It would be more accurate to say that they were a people of limited resources, some tribes like the Aestii didn't get round to exploiting natural bog iron until the 4th/5th century AD. Don't forget that the western tribes had the great La Tene and Halstatt cultures on their doorstep with which to trade and aquire weapons and as Jona rightly states the Germans got a material boost after the Teutoburg disaster.

The helmets of the germanic tribes. I have seen many helmets that they say are barbarian helmets with horns, wings, and such. Which ones did the germanic people wear, when they wore them. Captured helmets from the Romans and Greeks, La Tene style helments, or did they have there own style of helmet?

Which helmets are you refering to :?: The only winged and horned helmets i have seen are from a dubious Victorian romantic painting depicting a horde of Germans descending on a broken Roman line in the Teutoburg forest.
Some nobles may have obtained Celtic or later Roman helmets but they would be very very rare. Tacitus i think mentions animal skins/faces worn on the head. Check out this German site

http://www.chasuari.de/

The third gallery page has a warrior in a simple form of helmet possibly worn by nobles or upper class warriors.

[jbd_29349]

Here are two helmets that are in Nix Imperial: Enemies of Rome series helmets that I have the question about. It seems that everytime you see a picture of an enemy attacking the Romans you see them wearing one of these helments.

[Robert Vermaat]

Asterix makes an appearance!!!

[Jona Lendering]

The first one looks Celtic to me; the second one might as well be Late Villanova or Early Etruscan.

Please note that ideas about "wings on helmets", although not without ancient antecedents, became popular after they were shown on the Gauloises cigarets (famous design by Maurice Giot, 1910).




These cigarette boxes were parodied in Asterix. Many common mistakes regarding ancient history are derived from this comic series: the erroneous, imperial, Roman panoply during the age of Caesar, for example. (The Dutch translation of The Laurel Wreath calls Rome "the city of cities", which is of course Jerusalem, as the semitism clearly shows. Still, the expression can be found on the jacket of the Dutch translation of Livy. Not even classicists recognize how much in Asterix is fiction.)

[Jona Lendering]

Asterix makes an appearance!!!

You just beat me, making this remark a little earlier.

[Felix]

The primary advantage that the Germans had, in my opinion, was that they ambushed the legions. The Romans were completely out of fighting formation and forfeited their own advantages of organization and discipline. A similar defeat was inflicted on the British army in the French and Indian War at Fort Duquesne. The Indians could not stand against a European army in an open field, but wrecked the British column marching along a path in the woods.

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

I am no expert by far,but I know there is a wealth of information here
and elsewhere on this topic.
I suggest reading Caesar's accounts. He is very descriptive and even quite complimentary to his adversaries. I never got the impression the Germans were just nomadic savages with clubs and pointy sticks.
Also,just because equipment is sold by a vendor,does not mean it is correct.Most people who sell armor will sell what's available, and some will sell more accurate stuff.

[Jona Lendering]

I suggest reading Caesar's accounts. He is very descriptive and even quite complimentary to his adversaries. I never got the impression the Germans were just nomadic savages with clubs and pointy sticks.

Reading the sources is always the best one can do, and Caesar's literary strategy is -indeed- to be complimentary to his opponents. However, he is subtle. Take, for instance, the famous opening lines about the threefold division of Gaul. If you would plot it on the map, you would get:

• The Roman province, very civilized
  Aquitania
  Those who are called Celts in their own language
  The Belgians, who are the most brave of all Gauls because they live closest to
  The Germans, the ultimate barbarians.

Without saying it explicitly, the reader gets the impression that when you move away from the Mediterranean, you encounter ever increasingly brave soldiers, greater barbarians, savage warriors. Perhaps my little article on the Edges of the Earth is useful to see how ancient topography and ethnography works: [url:2nwx5eke]http://www.livius.org/ea-eh/edges/edges.html[/url].

[Felix]

Speaking of Caesar, the battle against the Nervii is a fair case of what happens when a Roman force is surprised.